Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
How do you feel about DMPCs?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6207124" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p>Because the DM's relationship to an NPC should be entirely different than the players relationship to a PC.</p><p></p><p>a) A player invests his ego in a PC. The DM should never invest his ego in an NPC.</p><p></p><p>b) A player has a reasonable desire for his PC to appear cool and to do cool things. The DM should never invest emotionally in a particular NPC appearing cool. If a DM gets excited about an NPC seeming cool, and the NPC fails utterly and goes down like a chump in the first round or appears a bumbling fool, the DM should mentally shrug and get on with it.</p><p></p><p>c) A player has a reasonable desire to appear in the spot light. A DM should never want to take spot light from the player. For this reason, the DM should want his NPCs that could steal spot light from the player to appear on stage for only brief intervals, and that if an NPC is going to be on stage scene after scene and act after act, it be an NPC that serves primarily to direct attention to the PC - a sidekick, comic relief, a foil, a rival, an enemy, even chorus that serves to praise and exalt the PC (in my game gods and kings serve in this role).</p><p></p><p>d) A player has a reasonable desire to optimize his PC's abilities. A DM should never be emotionally invested in making his NPC's optimal and maximizing their abilities, because the DM has unlimited resources. A DM should instead take pride in making evocative NPCs out of the minimal resources. If you ever have a situation where the player would rather be or play your NPC than his own character, you are in the wrong as a DM IMO. I always consider it a failing of a module writer if an NPC was built with a point buy higher than the players, has more 18's than a player could reasonably have, or has powers and abilities that the PC's could not reasonably acquire. Any NPCs that are of higher level than the PC's should not be as cool as the PC's would be at the same level. The only NPCs in my game that really outshine my PC's are deities and the like. And in my 1e game, it was not unusual for PCs to be capable of outshining some of the demigods in time.</p><p></p><p>It's just simply not fair to the player's to put an NPC in a protagonist role. You have the infinite resources of a DM. You can ALWAYS make an NPC that is more powerful than the PCs. It represents no glory to you the DM for having declared the existence of such a character. Any DM can always say, "I see your N and raise you N+1", or "I see your N and raise you N+100". The DM has no limits. He has full mechanical and narrative authority.</p><p></p><p>It's ok to have a mentor/quest giver figure. But if you have one, he should stay out of directly solving problems. For whatever reason, he shouldn't be able to go into the dungeon with the players and solve problems on their behalf directly. And he should not be so far beyond the PC's ability, that the day when the PC's realize that they are now greater and more powerful than the character whose power seemed so immense at first is infinitely delayed.</p><p></p><p>The best NPCs are like the best PCs in one area. The best NPCs are judged by who they are, and not what they can do. Really great characterization doesn't require awesome stats. The ability to impress the PC's doesn't require NPCs that are more competent than they are. All they need is the ability to do something slightly different and do it well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6207124, member: 4937"] Yes. Because the DM's relationship to an NPC should be entirely different than the players relationship to a PC. a) A player invests his ego in a PC. The DM should never invest his ego in an NPC. b) A player has a reasonable desire for his PC to appear cool and to do cool things. The DM should never invest emotionally in a particular NPC appearing cool. If a DM gets excited about an NPC seeming cool, and the NPC fails utterly and goes down like a chump in the first round or appears a bumbling fool, the DM should mentally shrug and get on with it. c) A player has a reasonable desire to appear in the spot light. A DM should never want to take spot light from the player. For this reason, the DM should want his NPCs that could steal spot light from the player to appear on stage for only brief intervals, and that if an NPC is going to be on stage scene after scene and act after act, it be an NPC that serves primarily to direct attention to the PC - a sidekick, comic relief, a foil, a rival, an enemy, even chorus that serves to praise and exalt the PC (in my game gods and kings serve in this role). d) A player has a reasonable desire to optimize his PC's abilities. A DM should never be emotionally invested in making his NPC's optimal and maximizing their abilities, because the DM has unlimited resources. A DM should instead take pride in making evocative NPCs out of the minimal resources. If you ever have a situation where the player would rather be or play your NPC than his own character, you are in the wrong as a DM IMO. I always consider it a failing of a module writer if an NPC was built with a point buy higher than the players, has more 18's than a player could reasonably have, or has powers and abilities that the PC's could not reasonably acquire. Any NPCs that are of higher level than the PC's should not be as cool as the PC's would be at the same level. The only NPCs in my game that really outshine my PC's are deities and the like. And in my 1e game, it was not unusual for PCs to be capable of outshining some of the demigods in time. It's just simply not fair to the player's to put an NPC in a protagonist role. You have the infinite resources of a DM. You can ALWAYS make an NPC that is more powerful than the PCs. It represents no glory to you the DM for having declared the existence of such a character. Any DM can always say, "I see your N and raise you N+1", or "I see your N and raise you N+100". The DM has no limits. He has full mechanical and narrative authority. It's ok to have a mentor/quest giver figure. But if you have one, he should stay out of directly solving problems. For whatever reason, he shouldn't be able to go into the dungeon with the players and solve problems on their behalf directly. And he should not be so far beyond the PC's ability, that the day when the PC's realize that they are now greater and more powerful than the character whose power seemed so immense at first is infinitely delayed. The best NPCs are like the best PCs in one area. The best NPCs are judged by who they are, and not what they can do. Really great characterization doesn't require awesome stats. The ability to impress the PC's doesn't require NPCs that are more competent than they are. All they need is the ability to do something slightly different and do it well. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
How do you feel about DMPCs?
Top