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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Guest&nbsp; 85555" data-source="post: 5903322">I am not saying these are his reasons. I am saying there are reasons why someone might be okay with saves but not healing surges and interogating them for a perceived inconsistency just intensifies the hostility (and aggressive rhetoric just intimidates it doesn't illuminate). I can see that you are troubled by perceived insults. If that is your issue with a poster, then mention you think these labels are unfair. But most of us who criticize 4e do so becuase it genuinely doesn't appeal to us (some of us find it unrealistic, but that isn't true of all pposters). I have been pretty consistent all along. All i feel anyone is obligated to give is their preference. They don't need to go into minute self examination of their inner motives. You are adept at socratic questioning, but I really think it is unproductive in these cases. People who are not aquainted with rhetoric will be easy pickings, but that doesn't make them any less right in their position (it just means they don't know how to handle a well constructed line of debate).and no one is trying to articulate a robust theory of rpging. They are just giving their preferences. It is possible to want more simulationsist mechanics in D&D but to also accept the established mechanics that are less simulationist simply because they are accustomed to them. So again, someone could reject HS on simulationist grounds, but be okay with saves remaining in the game. It may just be a matter of not wanting to add in more stuff they find dissassociative ( i dont mean this as an insult, it is just a handy decription for why certain mechanics rub me the wrong way----and i understand some maybnot find them dissassociative at all). I realize folks take these debates seriously. But I really think we need to take a step back and not take it so personally when peoples' preferences differ from our own (or feel insulted if someone thinks our prefered edition isn't balanced, is not realistic, or just isn't fun).</blockquote>

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