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<blockquote data-quote="JiffyPopTart" data-source="post: 4596716" data-attributes="member: 4881">1. I will assume by &quot;You&quot; you are actually referring to &quot;people that play DnD in general&quot; because I neither min-max my characters nor have I cried about them.2. Having a 9INT isn't exactly min-maxing a stat.&nbsp; It actually fairly common for a paladin (the most common victim of low skillitis) to have such an ability score due to them needing many other stats in the positives just to use their class features.&nbsp; This gives you 1SP per level, or 23 at the top end.*************I will try to make a decently skilled paladin.I will make him a human to get the extra feat and SPs.&nbsp; This brings me up to 46 SP at 20th level.&nbsp; Since I want my guy to be skill heavy for a paladin I bump up my INT to an even 10 to help.&nbsp; Now I am working with 69 skill points.In my opinion, any 20th level adventurer with years of experience under his belt would have picked up at least a smidge of the following skills, so I spread out my skill points to reflect this.Looking through the d20 NPC wiki I find a decently balanced paladin character and grab his statsStr 20, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20I also blow 3 of my 8 feat slots on open-minded for an additional 15 points (assuming you can do this, I don't have the non-core stuff memorized.)&nbsp; This would give me 84SP.&nbsp; Since I am dividing evenly in 11 skills, I will bump that up to 88SP for easy math.I will further increase each skill by an additional 4 points to reflect synergies and magic items and equipment (which I am not going to purchase for this sample guy)This give me the following skills with a 20th level character.Appraise&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +8&nbsp; (Can't automatically appraise a dagger)Climb&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +13 (Can't automatically climb a rope)*Diplomacy&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +17 Decent score hereGather Information&nbsp;&nbsp; +13 Decent score here*Heal&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +14&nbsp; Good score hereJump&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +13&nbsp; Decent score here*Knowlege (Religion) +12 Decent score hereListen&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +10 Is NEVER going to hear a threat coming.*Ride&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +13&nbsp; Decent score hereSpot&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +10&nbsp; Is NEVER going to see a threat hiding.Survival&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +10&nbsp; (Can't automatically keep from getting lost)So, my synopsis.I wanted to create a paladin who was a skill monkey.&nbsp; I chose my race solely because of its bonus feat and skill points.&nbsp; I gave very generous bonuses to all the skills to not have to choose items (an no way would you get +4 bonuses to all 11 skills and still have basic gear if you actually did spend the gold).&nbsp; I didn't even subtract Armor Check Penalties (which would push the skills even lower).I end up with only half of my skills at the power level that they SHOULD be with a 20th level seasoned adventurer.&nbsp; With all the character building resources I put into being able to do skills well....he just doesn't do them well.&nbsp; He does them OK...and thats only because I invested so much to make them just OK.And, to take us all the way back to the top of the thread.....he will never sense anyones motive.DS*Note: you can recreate this same dilemma with any class that has 2SP/lvl and requires that you have decent stats other than INT (fighter/cleric/druid/sorcerer).&nbsp; That's why I say its a broken system.*Note2: My 4th edition character is a 10INT human paladin.&nbsp; He has the highest skill level in the 5 man party for diplomacy, intimidation, insight (aka Sense Motive), and Perception (aka Spot and Listen).&nbsp; It only took me one of my feats to achieve this (skill training: Perception).&nbsp; Your supposition that the skill systems are similar is incorrect.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="JiffyPopTart, post: 4596716, member: 4881"] 1. I will assume by "You" you are actually referring to "people that play DnD in general" because I neither min-max my characters nor have I cried about them. 2. Having a 9INT isn't exactly min-maxing a stat. It actually fairly common for a paladin (the most common victim of low skillitis) to have such an ability score due to them needing many other stats in the positives just to use their class features. This gives you 1SP per level, or 23 at the top end. ************* I will try to make a decently skilled paladin. I will make him a human to get the extra feat and SPs. This brings me up to 46 SP at 20th level. Since I want my guy to be skill heavy for a paladin I bump up my INT to an even 10 to help. Now I am working with 69 skill points. In my opinion, any 20th level adventurer with years of experience under his belt would have picked up at least a smidge of the following skills, so I spread out my skill points to reflect this. Looking through the d20 NPC wiki I find a decently balanced paladin character and grab his stats Str 20, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20 I also blow 3 of my 8 feat slots on open-minded for an additional 15 points (assuming you can do this, I don't have the non-core stuff memorized.) This would give me 84SP. Since I am dividing evenly in 11 skills, I will bump that up to 88SP for easy math. I will further increase each skill by an additional 4 points to reflect synergies and magic items and equipment (which I am not going to purchase for this sample guy) This give me the following skills with a 20th level character. Appraise +8 (Can't automatically appraise a dagger) Climb +13 (Can't automatically climb a rope) *Diplomacy +17 Decent score here Gather Information +13 Decent score here *Heal +14 Good score here Jump +13 Decent score here *Knowlege (Religion) +12 Decent score here Listen +10 Is NEVER going to hear a threat coming. *Ride +13 Decent score here Spot +10 Is NEVER going to see a threat hiding. Survival +10 (Can't automatically keep from getting lost) So, my synopsis. I wanted to create a paladin who was a skill monkey. I chose my race solely because of its bonus feat and skill points. I gave very generous bonuses to all the skills to not have to choose items (an no way would you get +4 bonuses to all 11 skills and still have basic gear if you actually did spend the gold). I didn't even subtract Armor Check Penalties (which would push the skills even lower). I end up with only half of my skills at the power level that they SHOULD be with a 20th level seasoned adventurer. With all the character building resources I put into being able to do skills well....he just doesn't do them well. He does them OK...and thats only because I invested so much to make them just OK. And, to take us all the way back to the top of the thread.....he will never sense anyones motive. DS *Note: you can recreate this same dilemma with any class that has 2SP/lvl and requires that you have decent stats other than INT (fighter/cleric/druid/sorcerer). That's why I say its a broken system. *Note2: My 4th edition character is a 10INT human paladin. He has the highest skill level in the 5 man party for diplomacy, intimidation, insight (aka Sense Motive), and Perception (aka Spot and Listen). It only took me one of my feats to achieve this (skill training: Perception). Your supposition that the skill systems are similar is incorrect. [/QUOTE]

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