NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4597293" data-attributes="member: 35909">Que?But...I already proved you could...unless you think the 4 +int skills classes are also not "decently skilled."  And again, a Paladin is really set up from the get-go to not be so great in the skills department, it's hardly fair to compare one to a Ranger or whatever.Back on topic...I don't see the major problem with having the players ask for their sense motive checks, and I don't think using spot checks is a fair comparison, for whoever said that.  I can't even remember now.  I think the key difference is knowing what you're rolling for.  In the case of a spot or listen check, it could be for something as important as noticing the choker over the door way or as trivial as hearing two horny teenagers rolling around in the tall grass.  The point is, that information isn't provided to the players until after the fact (typically, I'm sure there are exceptions).  The result is entirely unhazy, too. Either you make the check and notice, or fail it and don't...until whatever it is makes itself known.Contrast with Sense Motive, where you are actively interacting with the "trigger" of the check.  There will be cases where it really doesn't matter if the NPC is lying or honest, and the PCs will just not even want to bother fact-checking the claim.  Seems realistic to me.  When the friendly shop clerk talking aimlessly about his trip out to the prairie is actually an undercover spy bs'ing every single bit of it as part of his cover...do the PCs deserve a check without asking?  Maybe, I can understand insisting that they get one.  To me, it's more a kudos to the spy's skill that they just shrug off his boring story and move on...unless while they listen they pick out some conflicting details or something they know (say, via knowledge check) to be untrue or unlikely...  I don't know, I think it encourages more active roleplaying.  Also, Sense Motive isn't nearly as binary as Spot/Listen.  Sense Motive does not at all dictate how your character feels.  You can fail to Sense Motive a dozen times on an NPC and still not trust his word for <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />, you just simply have no concrete reason to feel distrustful, and you may end up being wrong.**It is annoying to me that there's no counter situation to that, a sort of "tell the truth but be so uncharismatic or unfairly suspected of falsehood that you're considered to be lying anyway" similar to how with Diplomacy you can make someone dislike you more.  I really wish there was a mechanic to cover that.</blockquote>

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