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General Tabletop Discussion
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How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?
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<blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7589524" data-attributes="member: 59848"><p>You talk as if optimization is a bad thing? In my experience, players want to both play and interesting character AND be effective at what they do. Optimization is not a four-letter word (LITERALLY! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /> ). There is room for both story and optimization. Especially since D&D is not just about a story or creating challenges, but it's also a game. As a game, why is it bad to feel like you can "win" at certain things?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Believe me. I am aware of the powers and abilities Colossus and Wolverine possess. I've been reading comics longer than I've played D&D. But I'm not suggesting that a D&D player be able to throw a person hundreds of feat, or that the person being thrown deals 20d12 damage. In a game where wizards can throw blasts of fire like bombs, clerics can directly talk to gods, fighters (regardless of strength) can swing a 10lb maul with decent accuracy and deadly force once every 2 seconds (at level 11) indefinitely without ANY rest at all, where sorcerers can fly, and druids can turn into polar bears and summon creatures to their aid, monks can channel ki energy into stunning strikes... why, in this context, does a man throwing another man seem so implausible? Why is THIS the line you choose? The hill you decided to die on?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think anyone is stating that a fastball special is going to always be the ideal, best strategy. In all the comics where Wolverine and Colossus fight together, they only use it a handful of times, and only when it makes sense and would provide some kind of advantage. But also, because the writers and artists thought the concept was cool. It was a creative, unexpected solution to a problem that the bad guy challenging them likely did not account for. Why deny players similar ability to develop their own creative solutions using their tools in creative, unexpected ways? Do we as DM's have to telegraph the only black and white solution for the challenges we put in our players' paths? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sounds like you have had players make the game less fun not just for you, but for the other players at the table through arguing. That sucks. And I think that perhaps, they have skewed you to be more protective of your game. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sounds like you are intentionally making the guy that is actually playing the game in the way you enjoy waste their action. Just because something is cool or fun shouldn't make it unreasonably difficult (unless it just doesn't make sense in the context of the scenario or challenge). And also, sounds like the guy that accepts this doesn't really care about the outcome, which may be a different problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is the player that I would say "I've told you what you need to do if you want to attempt this course of action. If you are unhappy with it, we can discuss it after the game." Then I would not even acknowledge further attempts to slow down the game. At least, that is how I would handle it if I had experience with this player and that was how they argued. If they maybe highlighted specific abilities, resources, or active spells that made sense to affect the outcome I hadn't considered, that's different. But what you describe sounds like whining. Which I consider to be different than playing a game or wanting to have all factors considered when making a ruling.</p><p></p><p><strong>EDIT:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why is that a bad thing? What if I want to play a barbarian because I'm really into Conan? Or a wizard because Harry Potter is just the coolest? Fantasy, be it books, movies, TV, video games, or comics, inspires us! Fantasy, and Fantasy RPGs in particular, give us a chance to escape and live through those really cool moments that maybe even got us into D&D in the first place. So sure, a player that wants to use the fastball special didn't invent it, so maybe that's not technically creative. But they want to experience what it's like to do, even if in a small way via D&D. And it might be creative, because they have an interesting way to set up the ability using their resources to make it more feasible. Why is that a bad thing?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hawk Diesel, post: 7589524, member: 59848"] You talk as if optimization is a bad thing? In my experience, players want to both play and interesting character AND be effective at what they do. Optimization is not a four-letter word (LITERALLY! :-P ). There is room for both story and optimization. Especially since D&D is not just about a story or creating challenges, but it's also a game. As a game, why is it bad to feel like you can "win" at certain things? Believe me. I am aware of the powers and abilities Colossus and Wolverine possess. I've been reading comics longer than I've played D&D. But I'm not suggesting that a D&D player be able to throw a person hundreds of feat, or that the person being thrown deals 20d12 damage. In a game where wizards can throw blasts of fire like bombs, clerics can directly talk to gods, fighters (regardless of strength) can swing a 10lb maul with decent accuracy and deadly force once every 2 seconds (at level 11) indefinitely without ANY rest at all, where sorcerers can fly, and druids can turn into polar bears and summon creatures to their aid, monks can channel ki energy into stunning strikes... why, in this context, does a man throwing another man seem so implausible? Why is THIS the line you choose? The hill you decided to die on? I don't think anyone is stating that a fastball special is going to always be the ideal, best strategy. In all the comics where Wolverine and Colossus fight together, they only use it a handful of times, and only when it makes sense and would provide some kind of advantage. But also, because the writers and artists thought the concept was cool. It was a creative, unexpected solution to a problem that the bad guy challenging them likely did not account for. Why deny players similar ability to develop their own creative solutions using their tools in creative, unexpected ways? Do we as DM's have to telegraph the only black and white solution for the challenges we put in our players' paths? Sounds like you have had players make the game less fun not just for you, but for the other players at the table through arguing. That sucks. And I think that perhaps, they have skewed you to be more protective of your game. Sounds like you are intentionally making the guy that is actually playing the game in the way you enjoy waste their action. Just because something is cool or fun shouldn't make it unreasonably difficult (unless it just doesn't make sense in the context of the scenario or challenge). And also, sounds like the guy that accepts this doesn't really care about the outcome, which may be a different problem. This is the player that I would say "I've told you what you need to do if you want to attempt this course of action. If you are unhappy with it, we can discuss it after the game." Then I would not even acknowledge further attempts to slow down the game. At least, that is how I would handle it if I had experience with this player and that was how they argued. If they maybe highlighted specific abilities, resources, or active spells that made sense to affect the outcome I hadn't considered, that's different. But what you describe sounds like whining. Which I consider to be different than playing a game or wanting to have all factors considered when making a ruling. [B]EDIT:[/B] Why is that a bad thing? What if I want to play a barbarian because I'm really into Conan? Or a wizard because Harry Potter is just the coolest? Fantasy, be it books, movies, TV, video games, or comics, inspires us! Fantasy, and Fantasy RPGs in particular, give us a chance to escape and live through those really cool moments that maybe even got us into D&D in the first place. So sure, a player that wants to use the fastball special didn't invent it, so maybe that's not technically creative. But they want to experience what it's like to do, even if in a small way via D&D. And it might be creative, because they have an interesting way to set up the ability using their resources to make it more feasible. Why is that a bad thing? [/QUOTE]
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