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<blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 9581606" data-attributes="member: 6787503">I've been meaning to try Torchbearer 2e or any of the other indie games, but so far I haven't had the chance. It's hard enough for me to get to play 5E on anything but a sporadic basis!I haven't played or read 4e, but maybe you could confirm my suspicion that its description of Insight isn't very different from Insight in 5E. The difference, as far as one exists, seems to be, as you imply here, in the resolution framework.And yet there seems to be no problem with using a Wisdom check to determine whether the DM is obliged to provide players with information about secret doors or game to hunt. I'm not sure what the difference is that leads to complaints about PCs developing mind reading capabilities when it comes to catching someone in a lie.This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about! Imagine if the GM considered it their job to decide what that final argument had to be. It would be so much less protagonising, not to say less immersive, for the player not to able to author the PC's argument himself.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hriston, post: 9581606, member: 6787503"] I've been meaning to try Torchbearer 2e or any of the other indie games, but so far I haven't had the chance. It's hard enough for me to get to play 5E on anything but a sporadic basis! I haven't played or read 4e, but maybe you could confirm my suspicion that its description of Insight isn't very different from Insight in 5E. The difference, as far as one exists, seems to be, as you imply here, in the resolution framework. And yet there seems to be no problem with using a Wisdom check to determine whether the DM is obliged to provide players with information about secret doors or game to hunt. I'm not sure what the difference is that leads to complaints about PCs developing mind reading capabilities when it comes to catching someone in a lie. This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about! Imagine if the GM considered it their job to decide what that final argument had to be. It would be so much less protagonising, not to say less immersive, for the player not to able to author the PC's argument himself. [/QUOTE]

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