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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7790231" data-attributes="member: 16814">Curiously, would you also allow for use of Perception?I actually find the "I observe and learn something" absent interaction to be incoherent.  There has to be some form of interaction so that observations can be useful.  "I watch him" without engagement is empty of meaning, what's happening in the fiction is that the PC is picking up on tells or tics while the NPC continues to interact.  The use of Insight passive observation is almost always used in a backdated fashion -- you're asking to take an action against what's already happened.  I can see an observation use case if one PC is observing while another engages, but then I'd call that a joint effort and award advantage for the teamwork.  I just don't see how Insight as observation functions absent backdating to a previous interaction or in tandem with other PCs driving the interaction.  And, if another PC is driving interaction, they're engaged in the active form of Insight I mention above.Using Insight as a passive observation skill turns it into the perception problem -- it trains the players to not trust that the DM is fully presenting relevant information and that the PCs need to fish for it by using button-mash skills.  It's a Skinner box that DMs often over reward.  Which then causes the problem of policing the overuse of the button to get treats.  I much prefer a structure where interesting bits are called out in narration, and skills are then used to develop those things as part of the challenge of the scene.  I'm a firm believer that if you call for a check, the fiction must change afterwards -- towards the player's goal on a success and away on a failure.  Insight as observation is very limited in how it interacts with the fiction.  On a success, the DM tells the player what their PC thinks.  That's crossing a hard line for me in 5e (not so much in other systems where the lines are in different places), so it's right out.  On a failure, the DM is either doing the same or you narrate the NPC becoming upset for being stared at?  Which then leads to players trying to be unobtrusive about their observation, which leads to... the usual weirdness that shows up in these discussions where posters talk about how they prevent abuse of the button mashing they allow.As for using Charisma to elicit information and allowing Insight to add, I see that, but I rather like the idea that Charisma is useful for intimidation, lying, and persuading, but wisdom is also a valid social skill in deftly maneuvering an opponent in a social battle of wits.  So, I usually call for wisdom checks when trying to elicit information, as it's trying to get to truth, and leave Charisma to it's already beefy position in just about everything else (socially).</blockquote>

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