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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7790622" data-attributes="member: 6919838">And tossing in this from Elfcrusher&quot;&quot;I want to know if he actually knows Vinnie the Snake. I'm going to casually mention some untrue things about Vinnie that would surprise somebody who actually knows him, and watch his reaction.&quot;&quot;I want to know if he had feelings for her. I'm going to keep bringing her back into the conversation, and watch to see what he does.&quot;&quot;I want to know if he has a prior relationship with the city watch. I'll keep the conversation going for a while, then suddenly announce that the city watch should be here any minute, and see his reaction.&quot; (Player2: &quot;Ooh...I want to try to slip out, and then knock on the door loudly!&quot;)&quot;To me, it seems each of these is requiring a certain degree of detail in player specificstion of approach and aptitude of the player in the skill naming specific tells in advance, knowing specific tricks to surprise reactions etc&quot; and also even a very specific focus- not just deception but pre-choosing deception about what. Wrong guess on what he is gonna be hiding and what then? Wasted effort and time?When I compare that to the repeated claims about how nope, player just gives me something of an approach, not requiring player side knowledge etc... and I look at other skills like say arcana, medicine, survival for say foraging or spotting tracks etc or even stealth- it's hard to believe that those skills also require that much &quot;player aptitude in how done.&quot; Does the survivalist have to give you specific types of signs appropriate to the terrain (-and animal) and which type of animal tracks they are looking for or just say &quot;check around for signs or tracks to see what's been by recently&quot;&quot;If I have to tell you &quot;Somethings fishy, let's look for these tells snd bring up such snd such this way and that way&quot; to either get a check or get advsntage or auto-success on a check then it really really seems like player skill in what the GM believes are the actual &quot;tools of the trade&quot; is heavily favored in this flavor of the goal and approach. Yet, we kinda keep seeing comments saying that's not how it goes, it's not about letting plsyer skill ttump character skill etc.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7790622, member: 6919838"] And tossing in this from Elfcrusher ""I want to know if he actually knows Vinnie the Snake. I'm going to casually mention some untrue things about Vinnie that would surprise somebody who actually knows him, and watch his reaction." "I want to know if he had feelings for her. I'm going to keep bringing her back into the conversation, and watch to see what he does." "I want to know if he has a prior relationship with the city watch. I'll keep the conversation going for a while, then suddenly announce that the city watch should be here any minute, and see his reaction." (Player2: "Ooh...I want to try to slip out, and then knock on the door loudly!")" To me, it seems each of these is requiring a certain degree of detail in player specificstion of approach and aptitude of the [I]player[/I] in the skill naming specific tells in advance, knowing specific tricks to surprise reactions etc" and also even a very specific focus- not just deception but pre-choosing deception about what. Wrong guess on what he is gonna be hiding and what then? Wasted effort and time? When I compare that to the repeated claims about how nope, player just gives me something of an approach, not requiring player side knowledge etc... and I look at other skills like say arcana, medicine, survival for say foraging or spotting tracks etc or even stealth- it's hard to believe that those skills also require that much "player aptitude in how done." Does the survivalist have to give you specific types of signs appropriate to the terrain (-and animal) [I]and[/I] which type of animal tracks they are looking for or just say "check around for signs or tracks to see what's been by recently"" If I have to tell you "Somethings fishy, let's look for these tells snd bring up such snd such this way and that way" to either get a check or get advsntage or auto-success on a check then it really really seems like player skill in what the GM believes are the actual "tools of the trade" is heavily favored in this flavor of the goal and approach. Yet, we kinda keep seeing comments saying that's not how it goes, it's not about letting plsyer skill ttump character skill etc. [/QUOTE]

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