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<blockquote data-quote="Fast_Jimmy" data-source="post: 7354047" data-attributes="member: 6939191">Except that is not a Surprised enemy. The party is not making Stealth rolls and the two groups spot each other. No one is Surprised. Even if your DM rules that the Rogue is being Stealthy and that is enough, once the first decision to attack is made, the rules state you must begin rolling Initiative. After all, if the target rolls high enough in Initiative, they can go first and, even though they cannot do anything their first round, they are no longer Surprised. This means that the Assassinate doesn't happen with the first enemy, but it also means that Assassinate cannot happen with any other creature - the Surprised condition can only be conferred on the first round of Initiative.Now, keep in mind... I'm not a rules lawyer, nor would i try and absolutely shut down the kind of idea you are suggesting at my table. But here's the problem - the only people I know who actively say the Assassin isn't terrible are people who either don't abide by or don't understand Surprised rules as they exist in 5e. There are such rare circumstances that this would ever come up that it makes the ability nearly worthless, even when you have the entire party switching their playstyle to try and make it work for the PC.Also, your entire concept suggests scenarios where enemies would be okay with engaging in conversation with the party before being murdered. That's not going to happen very often, considering the vast majority of creatures in the MM, as an example, don't speak Common.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Fast_Jimmy, post: 7354047, member: 6939191"] Except that is not a Surprised enemy. The party is not making Stealth rolls and the two groups spot each other. No one is Surprised. Even if your DM rules that the Rogue is being Stealthy and that is enough, once the first decision to attack is made, the rules state you must begin rolling Initiative. After all, if the target rolls high enough in Initiative, they can go first and, even though they cannot do anything their first round, they are no longer Surprised. This means that the Assassinate doesn't happen with the first enemy, but it also means that Assassinate cannot happen with any other creature - the Surprised condition can only be conferred on the first round of Initiative. Now, keep in mind... I'm not a rules lawyer, nor would i try and absolutely shut down the kind of idea you are suggesting at my table. But here's the problem - the only people I know who actively say the Assassin isn't terrible are people who either don't abide by or don't understand Surprised rules as they exist in 5e. There are such rare circumstances that this would ever come up that it makes the ability nearly worthless, even when you have the entire party switching their playstyle to try and make it work for the PC. Also, your entire concept suggests scenarios where enemies would be okay with engaging in conversation with the party before being murdered. That's not going to happen very often, considering the vast majority of creatures in the MM, as an example, don't speak Common. [/QUOTE]

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