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<blockquote data-quote="Sleepy Walker" data-source="post: 7354108" data-attributes="member: 6924770">Ahh, but that assumes there are no neutral or friendly characters which would not be expecting a person to suddenly stab them in the back the moment they turn around, but at the same time those characters are presenting a significant obstacle to the PCs (something an evil or neutral assassin might figure a quick stab will rectify better than doing something else to achieve a goal).A simple situation would be some entity of the time is convinced he/she/it has won the PCs over or otherwise has them in a position where they are doing what he/she/it wants.&nbsp; Assassin character needs to break sight with a believable excuse (Entity turns around to get something or do something, Entity is engaged in conversation with a party member, the rogue convinces the entity that he wants to do something in a different part of the room while entity is engaged), stealth high enough, be close enough, and then plant an appropriate weapon in he/she/it's back (or throw it).&nbsp; I know in the campaign I have played, which is a year long, there have been many a instance where a battle could have been made easier by this very action.&nbsp; Where the opponent is trying to trick the party, often times succeeding because we really seem to not like landing the first blow and just let a thing talk us into thinking it is what it says it is.All of this is happening out of combat.&nbsp; RAW really only requires that the DM designate a creature surprised for a round.&nbsp; Just because it goes first does not mean it is not longer surprised.&nbsp; It could very well be that the rogue no longer gets its sneak attack dice, but it does get a critical hit at the least.If the party is not in initiative, the opponent cannot see the aggressor, and the aggressor sneaks high enough to not be sensed or otherwise makes a ranged attack while not sensed, then it is a surprise round and somebody is surprised.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sleepy Walker, post: 7354108, member: 6924770"] Ahh, but that assumes there are no neutral or friendly characters which would not be expecting a person to suddenly stab them in the back the moment they turn around, but at the same time those characters are presenting a significant obstacle to the PCs (something an evil or neutral assassin might figure a quick stab will rectify better than doing something else to achieve a goal). A simple situation would be some entity of the time is convinced he/she/it has won the PCs over or otherwise has them in a position where they are doing what he/she/it wants. Assassin character needs to break sight with a believable excuse (Entity turns around to get something or do something, Entity is engaged in conversation with a party member, the rogue convinces the entity that he wants to do something in a different part of the room while entity is engaged), stealth high enough, be close enough, and then plant an appropriate weapon in he/she/it's back (or throw it). I know in the campaign I have played, which is a year long, there have been many a instance where a battle could have been made easier by this very action. Where the opponent is trying to trick the party, often times succeeding because we really seem to not like landing the first blow and just let a thing talk us into thinking it is what it says it is. All of this is happening out of combat. RAW really only requires that the DM designate a creature surprised for a round. Just because it goes first does not mean it is not longer surprised. It could very well be that the rogue no longer gets its sneak attack dice, but it does get a critical hit at the least. If the party is not in initiative, the opponent cannot see the aggressor, and the aggressor sneaks high enough to not be sensed or otherwise makes a ranged attack while not sensed, then it is a surprise round and somebody is surprised. [/QUOTE]

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