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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 7354868" data-attributes="member: 5143">I'm confused. That's exactly what I said it was for. If two people can see each other and one tries to attack the other, you determine who acts first with initiative.If you can't see the other person attack, then they surprise you since you don't see a threat coming at you and therefore don't even try to Combat doesn't traditionally start until one side makes it clear that they are a threat (or something that can be perceived as a threat). People can draw their weapons all they want, they can even run circles around the enemies holding their weapons without any initiative being rolled as long as the other side doesn't perceive that as threatening, but as soon as a player says "I attack", I will roll for initiative to see if the enemy attacks them first.The key factor is that if they pull out weapons, it is likely the enemy will attack THEM, so as soon as one of the NPCs, decides "I'm going to attack this guy, he just pulled out weapons", I declare initiative.This process normally goes:Player: "While we are sitting around discussing trade agreements, I reach into my boot and pull out my dagger."DM: "Alright, the person across from you sees you pull a dagger. Roll for initiative."You know the threat is there. You can see them. You didn't know they were a threat, but as soon as they do something that makes it clear that they ARE a threat if you see that happen, then you ARE aware of a threat and initiative is rolled and since you were already aware of the person who was a threat before they attacked, you aren't surprised.The key is:"I pull a dagger and attack!" "He pulls out a dagger? Wow. That guy is a threat! Time to roll for initiative, I'd like to draw my sword at attack him first".In a surprise situation, you don't notice a threat at all until it hits you. If you can spot it/hear it/sense it in some way, even fractions of a second before it happens, then you aren't surprised.The Sage was clear about this in one of his articles about Stealth. Surprise is a thing that only happens at the beginning of a combat before the people are aware they are attacking each other. You can't hide and stay hidden until the 3rd round of combat and get surprise. You can't pretend to be someone's ally then attack them in the middle of the second round and get surprise. Surprise isn't about "I didn't expect that to happen!" it's about being unaware of the people who are attacking you.</blockquote>

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