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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9081408" data-attributes="member: 6690965"><p>I've also been pretty disappointed with Edward's take, for two reasons. </p><p></p><p>First, It's so focused on social hierarchy and reward structures, which I think can be a function of games, but is not the only or even the primary one. I play a lot of no-randomness, quite heavy board games, ranging from con-sims to 18XX to assorted euros. I mostly play with the same people, and we have a pretty solid understanding at this point of our win percentages, which don't really vary that much from game to game, and follow similar patterns. E tends to win in early plays, I tend to win once when I find a previously unexpected strategy and exploit it, N and C tend to win more often the longer we play the same game.</p><p></p><p>The reason we'd give for playing would involve describing novel board states, and/or "interesting decisions." Competition isn't a goal, it's a means to produce the thing that's actually engaging. Games essentially serve to magnify the impact of decision making. You submit to a system that limits your choices, proscribing what actions can and cannot be performed, and you agree to a victory condition (usually mandated by the game itself, but sometimes by personal or mutual agreement) against which your choices can be evaluated, and by doing so you ensure that each decision you make will have a greater impact than most decisions we make in or normal lives, and that the impact of that decision will be understood in a knowable way and the consequences felt in a reasonable timeframe.</p><p></p><p>The point isn't to win, it's to chew on those decisions. In order to ensure they can be evaluated, you agree to trying to win as a condition to play at all. The appeal of TTRPGs in this space is that they provide a clear, sensible mechanism to link what would otherwise have to be multiple games into a contiguous experience, and have the potential to provide a much wider set of action declarations than most games can really handle.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, I think it's a mistake to lump the thrill of gambling in with gaming. Those are two things that I think can happen at the same time, but are not intrinsically connected or even necessarily related in the way Edwards proposes. Risks are interesting in games, but only when they're knowable, and are subject to analysis. Picking between risks, deciding when it's more advantageous to put more at risk in exchange for husbanding resources and so. In discussing a game after the fact, one might point to a risk and either defend it as the best choice given the information, or concede that given the downside that emerged, a different choice would have made more sense. The actual thrill of reveal, of giving up control and finding out whether or not things worked out as you wanted, isn't compelling on the same axis. It's a totally different kind of enjoyment that one doesn't need the rest of games to enjoy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 9081408, member: 6690965"] I've also been pretty disappointed with Edward's take, for two reasons. First, It's so focused on social hierarchy and reward structures, which I think can be a function of games, but is not the only or even the primary one. I play a lot of no-randomness, quite heavy board games, ranging from con-sims to 18XX to assorted euros. I mostly play with the same people, and we have a pretty solid understanding at this point of our win percentages, which don't really vary that much from game to game, and follow similar patterns. E tends to win in early plays, I tend to win once when I find a previously unexpected strategy and exploit it, N and C tend to win more often the longer we play the same game. The reason we'd give for playing would involve describing novel board states, and/or "interesting decisions." Competition isn't a goal, it's a means to produce the thing that's actually engaging. Games essentially serve to magnify the impact of decision making. You submit to a system that limits your choices, proscribing what actions can and cannot be performed, and you agree to a victory condition (usually mandated by the game itself, but sometimes by personal or mutual agreement) against which your choices can be evaluated, and by doing so you ensure that each decision you make will have a greater impact than most decisions we make in or normal lives, and that the impact of that decision will be understood in a knowable way and the consequences felt in a reasonable timeframe. The point isn't to win, it's to chew on those decisions. In order to ensure they can be evaluated, you agree to trying to win as a condition to play at all. The appeal of TTRPGs in this space is that they provide a clear, sensible mechanism to link what would otherwise have to be multiple games into a contiguous experience, and have the potential to provide a much wider set of action declarations than most games can really handle. Secondly, I think it's a mistake to lump the thrill of gambling in with gaming. Those are two things that I think can happen at the same time, but are not intrinsically connected or even necessarily related in the way Edwards proposes. Risks are interesting in games, but only when they're knowable, and are subject to analysis. Picking between risks, deciding when it's more advantageous to put more at risk in exchange for husbanding resources and so. In discussing a game after the fact, one might point to a risk and either defend it as the best choice given the information, or concede that given the downside that emerged, a different choice would have made more sense. The actual thrill of reveal, of giving up control and finding out whether or not things worked out as you wanted, isn't compelling on the same axis. It's a totally different kind of enjoyment that one doesn't need the rest of games to enjoy. [/QUOTE]
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