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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9355197" data-attributes="member: 7026594">Agree on all counts, basically.I do think one of the weaknesses of both 5E and 3E is the huge save disparities which show up between different characters, and different saves on the same character in some instances. Where at higher levels in particular, one can be easy while another is virtually impossible.  I'm seeing some of this show up in the Dungeons of Drakkenheim campaign I'm playing in right now.  We're 12th level and I think my Fighter/Eldritch Knight's worst saves are a +1 or +2, and his best is more like a +9 or +10.  At this level enemy save DCs in the high teens or even approaching low twenties are a thing.  Having a 50% vs a 10% chance to save depending on what's being targeted is a big difference. But the availability of enormous bonuses to saves in AD&D combined with how good the charts get at higher levels generates a different issue, as you've ably articulated.Your suggestion of letting spells have SOME effect still rather than just be negated by good saves is definitely a good one, and that's something I recall we saw more of in 4E.Overall 4E probably did the whole saving throws (Non-AC Defenses) thing best, and my ideal system would probably look like a hybrid between it and 3rd.  Maybe with a dash of the flavor from 1E.</blockquote>