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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8097624" data-attributes="member: 29398">This, to me, is a part of how the game has become &quot;easier&quot; over time.How?Because 'succeeding with penalties' is still, in the end, succeeding; even though the roll says failure.Succeeding, with or without penalties, is something that should only happen if the roll in fact says success.&nbsp; Failure means failure, end of story; though if that failure also happens to have penalties attached (e.g. you failed so badly on finding the trap that you in fact set it off, roll a save) that's fine too.In broader terms, sometimes we all just have to accept and deal with the fact that there's going to be occasions when the dice just refuse to allow the story to advance; and in so doing also accept the frustration this causes in the players (and in the PCs).There's a flaw in that logic.You say a check should only happen if failure has meaningful consequences.&nbsp; What about times when the meaningful consequences* are tied to success?&nbsp; For example, searching for a secret door behind which you-as-DM know there's a big pile of loot while the players/PCs have no idea what's there or even if there's a hidden door there to find.From the players' position, failure almost always simply maintains the status quo without any consequences at all (in the PCs' eyes this is the case with most failed search checks)&nbsp; In other words, Nothing Happens.&nbsp; But you-as-DM know that success has meaningful consequences in that the PCs are going to gain a pile of wealth.* - consequences that may or may not be known by the players/PCs at the time the roll is made.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8097624, member: 29398"] This, to me, is a part of how the game has become "easier" over time. How? Because 'succeeding with penalties' is still, in the end, succeeding; [B]even though the roll says failure[/B]. Succeeding, with or without penalties, is something that should only happen if the roll in fact says success. Failure means failure, end of story; though if that failure also happens to have penalties attached (e.g. you failed so badly on finding the trap that you in fact set it off, roll a save) that's fine too. In broader terms, sometimes we all just have to accept and deal with the fact that there's going to be occasions when the dice just refuse to allow the story to advance; and in so doing also accept the frustration this causes in the players (and in the PCs). There's a flaw in that logic. You say a check should only happen if failure has meaningful consequences. What about times when the meaningful consequences* are tied to success? For example, searching for a secret door behind which you-as-DM know there's a big pile of loot while the players/PCs have no idea what's there or even if there's a hidden door there to find. From the players' position, failure almost always simply maintains the status quo without any consequences at all (in the PCs' eyes this is the case with most failed search checks) In other words, Nothing Happens. But you-as-DM know that success has meaningful consequences in that the PCs are going to gain a pile of wealth. * - consequences that may or may not be known by the players/PCs at the time the roll is made. [/QUOTE]

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