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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5739816" data-attributes="member: 35909">Well, when your hp is basically equal to the wizard (he could afford a higher con score than you)... and your armor and fort saves are laughable...hell yes?&nbsp; What, you think the big scary monster that even the Fighter has trouble tanking is going to just sit there, watch a blatantly soft target move around into flank, do decent damage...and attack the fighter instead of him?&nbsp; I know this is a &quot;fantasy&quot; game, but come on now!Sneak Attack isn't awesome damage output.&nbsp; When you factor in the Fighter's higher attack bonus leading to more attacks actually landing and factor in his weapon training, weapon-related feats, gloves of duelling, str x1.5, etc...&nbsp; You'll see even when sneak attacking, rogue's not doing &quot;awesome&quot; damage output, unless you define &quot;awesome&quot; as &quot;what any generic meat shield can do all the time with ease.&quot;&nbsp; And again, the idea that a rogue HAS to melee to get his precious sneak attack is a Pathfinder convention.&nbsp; Ranged sneak attacking used to be a perfectly reasonable request.Nice generalizations and back handed insults about the people you've gamed with!&nbsp; Hurray for being a team player!Let me ask you a question.&nbsp; Why should the rogue, more than ANY other class, be so utterly reliant on others just to fight?&nbsp; No other class is like that.&nbsp; A Fighter just swings his sword.&nbsp; Buffs are nice, but ultimately, he can swing his sword.&nbsp; Casters...having a meat shield is awesome, but &quot;dude 15 ft in front of you in full plate&quot; isn't exactly a required focus for spellcasting...&nbsp; Why is a loner, self-sufficient rogue an incompatible genre to RP in the game?As for your observations...&nbsp; You said before, this is from PFS play...organized play!&nbsp; Maybe you don't understand why I felt the need to bold that, I'll explain...I like team work.&nbsp; I LOVE team work.&nbsp; Playing with my long time friends is awesome, any time we play in a game together we try to find fun ways to synergize, buffs useful for each other, 1-2 combo actions to do (which we call &quot;dual techs,&quot; after the Chrono Trigger term), and more.&nbsp; It's great!But...sadly, a lot of times I don't get to play with my longtime friends.&nbsp; Often times, I end up joining games with a bunch of random strangers I've never seen or spoken to before.&nbsp; You know...like organized play.&nbsp; I don't know who the hell these hopefully nice people are, what they like to do, their gaming preferences, how generous they are with buff spells and teamwork tactics.&nbsp; It'd be great if things all went peachy and we became a tightnit unit.&nbsp; But, what if that does't happen?&nbsp; Do I really want my character's ability to be competent to rely on the kindness of strangers?&nbsp; Heck no, that's crazy!So perhaps...that had more to do with your observations than those Rogue players being terrible human beings?&nbsp; Maybe?Please do more reflecting...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 5739816, member: 35909"] Well, when your hp is basically equal to the wizard (he could afford a higher con score than you)... and your armor and fort saves are laughable...hell yes? What, you think the big scary monster that even the Fighter has trouble tanking is going to just sit there, watch a blatantly soft target move around into flank, do decent damage...and attack the fighter instead of him? I know this is a "fantasy" game, but come on now! Sneak Attack isn't awesome damage output. When you factor in the Fighter's higher attack bonus leading to more attacks actually landing and factor in his weapon training, weapon-related feats, gloves of duelling, str x1.5, etc... You'll see even when sneak attacking, rogue's not doing "awesome" damage output, unless you define "awesome" as "what any generic meat shield can do all the time with ease." And again, the idea that a rogue HAS to melee to get his precious sneak attack is a Pathfinder convention. Ranged sneak attacking used to be a perfectly reasonable request. Nice generalizations and back handed insults about the people you've gamed with! Hurray for being a team player! Let me ask you a question. Why should the rogue, more than ANY other class, be so utterly reliant on others just to fight? No other class is like that. A Fighter just swings his sword. Buffs are nice, but ultimately, he can swing his sword. Casters...having a meat shield is awesome, but "dude 15 ft in front of you in full plate" isn't exactly a required focus for spellcasting... Why is a loner, self-sufficient rogue an incompatible genre to RP in the game? As for your observations... You said before, this is from PFS play...[b]organized play[/b]! Maybe you don't understand why I felt the need to bold that, I'll explain... I like team work. I LOVE team work. Playing with my long time friends is awesome, any time we play in a game together we try to find fun ways to synergize, buffs useful for each other, 1-2 combo actions to do (which we call "dual techs," after the Chrono Trigger term), and more. It's great! But...sadly, a lot of times I don't get to play with my longtime friends. Often times, I end up joining games with a bunch of random strangers I've never seen or spoken to before. You know...like [b]organized play[/b]. I don't know who the hell these hopefully nice people are, what they like to do, their gaming preferences, how generous they are with buff spells and teamwork tactics. It'd be great if things all went peachy and we became a tightnit unit. But, what if that does't happen? Do I really want my character's ability to be competent to rely on the kindness of strangers? Heck no, that's crazy! So perhaps...that had more to do with your observations than those Rogue players being terrible human beings? Maybe? Please do more reflecting... [/QUOTE]

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