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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 8400244" data-attributes="member: 20564">If you honestly feel like I've been putting words in your mouth, I'm sorry.  I'll quote your words on why I feel you have been saying what I was responding to.  From my perception this has been what you are saying.  I admit and apologize that when your responses felt like an attack - calling about quote mining, declaring strawmen - I responded angrily which I should not have.You directly posted it twice, that optimizers will focus the game on what they optimize for.  Here are the earlier quotes:and(Bolding mine, for a point below.)I am not in any way trying to tell you "what you really think", I am taking the words you have communicated to us at face value.I read these as you saying optimizers will try to focus on one mode of play - whatever they have optimized for.  That seems to me you saying that they will all play the same way - to focus on what they optimized for.Please look at the bolded section above where you talk about optimizing for seducing barmaids, and narrowing the game to that aspect.  That's pretty explicit that you have linked the fault of seducing barmaids to optimizing seducing barmaids. I think it's unwarrented to take a tone that that's not a reasonable reading. It may not be what you intended - I have not tried to say what you are thinking - but it is what you wrote, which is what I have been responding to.Schtick and optimization are not the same thing.  Yes, characters will follow their schtick, regardless if they have "optimized for it".  Most character have a schtick: "I'm the nature loving druid who loves animals and adopts strays", I'm the failed knight trying to prove that I'm worthy", "I'm the orphan who acts tough but doesn't realize he's looking for a found family".Now, since we've had misunderstandings before, you might be talking about mechanical schticks only, I'm unsure.  But what I am trying to show is that every character has a schtick or elevator pitch on who they are they try to play towards, it's not limited to mechanical schticks nor to optimizers.To address your specific example I've played a Noble Half-Elf Paladin who tried to talk his way (or buy his way) through things and not start fights.  He wasn't "optimized for it" any more than the noble background grants the Persuasion skill and he had a high charisma.  If anything he was optimized for keeping the party alive in a fight (Oath of Ancients for both base and subclass aura, Inspiring Leader @ 4th, sword and shield to act as a tank, etc.), yet I actively played not to get into fights.  Against my mechanical schtick but very much in line with the character schtick.  That's anecdotal - what some are calling "my experience" - so just assign it the same weight as other anecdotal claims.Having a schtick is not the same as optimization.  A friend played a sorcerer entertainer who's schtick was ice spells.  It was pretty far from optimized - any one non-fire element will find the spells aren't nearly as common or varied.  You can't conflate a character having a schtick and being optimized.  If he was optimized, it would have gone for fire.Again, this is you stating an opinion where there are plenty of counter-examples.  Combat is the most common optimization place because it's the most mechanically-lengthy individual scene.  ("Mechanically" is an important distinction in there, as optimization works with the mechanics.  I am not saying it is the most common scene or the longest.)  Players often use their knowledge of the system to be good in combat.  That does not mean that they try to turn everything into combat.  Often players will make sure their characters are good mechanically at combat and have some other schtick, such as my "talk/buy your way through everything" noble paladin from above.Yes, if you have a schtick you will play towards it.  Rogues get expertise at 1st level and are primarily DEX based - if you want your schtick to be sneaking or thieving, common activities for someone picking the rogue class, you're looking at normal choices - not optimization - in fulfilling that schtick.  It's like saying a player is optimizing a fighter when they get extra attack at 5th level.  It's not, that's just normal play.The summary of all this: players will play their schtick, which often has to do with why they picked a class or background.  And making normal choices for base features in that class isn't "optimizing" that we can try to pin the behavior style on optimizers.  I don't think I need to go through the other schtick example to repeat again so let's move on.Absolutely.  But that statement has little to do with optimization.  Everyone creates a character because they want to play it.I don't disagree with this, but I do with the implication I am getting from context that it's optimizers only.  Since we just established that everyone creates a character they want to play, it seems to me like this statement is saying that every player out there gets bored if what they want to see isn't there a reasonable amount of time.  Which again, I agree with - if I enjoy RP and it's a pure dungeon crawl, I get bored.But nothing links this to only optimizers - it's not a statement about them.</blockquote>

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