How does a game work without skills?

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Somethings been bugging me recently about what people say about editions like 1e: If you don't have skills how do you adjudicate non-combat situations? In particular I don't understand how things such as sensing (Sense Motive, Spot, Listen), any sort of movement that has a consequence for failure (basically any Str or Dex skill), and being sneaky (Disguise, Forgery, Move Silently, Hide) work.

 

[Nifft]

Talkin' about what your PC does, rolling dice for ability checks, and ad-hoc stuff like that.

Cheers, -- N

 

[el-remmen]

Somethings been bugging me recently about what people say about editions like 1e: If you don't have skills how do you adjudicate non-combat situations? In particular I don't understand how things such as sensing (Sense Motive, Spot, Listen), any sort of movement that has a consequence for failure (basically any Str or Dex skill), and being sneaky (Disguise, Forgery, Move Silently, Hide) work.

Either

1) For when things are difficult to determine: Stat checks (usually on a d20, but for difficulty I used to used sometimes make it 4d6 or 5d6 - that is, you want to match or get lower than the relevant stat)

2) Otherwise, GM fiat - if it just makes sense to hear something, or if a climb is easy enough, etc. . . then you just wave the ole hand.

A lot of time certain tasks were accomplished by means of how well the group could devise a way to overcome the obstacle and explain it.

 

[Fifth Element]

DM fiat, basically.

The sneaky-type stuff is covered in the rules, but only for thieves. Which means you need two separate systems to adjudicate the same types of actions, depending on whether the character is a thief or not.

1E introduced Non-Weapon Proficiencies, in Oriental Adventures, and then in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and Wilderness Survival Guide. They were essentially codified ability checks, IIRC.

 

[Fifth Element]

2) Otherwise, GM fiat - if it just makes sense to hear something, or if a climb is easy enough, etc. . . then you just wave the ole hand.

Not sure if those are good examples, because those are things covered by thief skills. It might invalidate the thief if you just wave the ole hand too often.

 

[darjr]

Lots depends on the GM, but the players would get a description, one with enough detail to give them some leverage, then describe what they did to solve it.

First, The GM would have to decide if they were strong enough, smart enough, dexterous enough, wise enough, charismatic enough, or could withstand the effort. Even not rolled against, the stats counted for something. Diceless really.

B, I think, at least in my games, it was assumed a certain set of skills, of low ability, were part and parcel of being an adventurer, or specific to a class or race. So the DM would throw that onto the above pile for consideration.

Omega, AD&D 1e did have skills, it was optional, and didn't include a way to test them with dice, but the DMG spelled out a list of skills that PC's could have.

P.S. just adding my long winded two cents.

 

[JeffB]

Not sure if those are good examples, because those are things covered by thief skills. It might invalidate the thief if you just wave the ole hand too often.

As for the climbing, not necc- The Thief's ability is specifically for climbing SHEER surfaces (no handholds, etc), but I think alot of people have come to the erroneous conclusion over the years that it means "climb anything". and frankly, alot of people have made alot of erroneous conclusions about previous editions rules (myself included).

 

[ExploderWizard]

Not sure if those are good examples, because those are things covered by thief skills. It might invalidate the thief if you just wave the ole hand too often.

Which is why the thief class is kind of self-justifying. If every character could do "thief stuff" with ability checks and good description of action then the thief isn't needed at all and the game runs even smoother.

 

[WayneLigon]

It doesn't work for long if the PC's are interested in anything but dungeon combat. Eventually, you're going to get people that want to do more, or emulate particular fictional heroes, and then that house of cards falls right over.

Mostly it was dealt with by the GM coming up with an ad-hoc system of his own, by using simple ability score checks (such as 'roll under your Dex on a d20 to avoid falling off the log'), or using the saving throw tables. Some third party D&D-clone supplements added skills and some people would use those.

 

[Fifth Element]

As for the climbing, not necc- The Thief's ability is specifically for climbing SHEER surfaces (no handholds, etc), but I think alot of people have come to the erroneous conclusion over the years that it means "climb anything". and frankly, alot of people have made alot of erroneous conclusions about previous editions rules (myself included).

Nope. See page 19 of the 1E DMG, under "Thief Abilities". The section for Climbing Walls spells out how fast a thief climbs, based on the type of surface. Surfaces range from "very smooth - few cracks" to "rough and with ledges or many projections". The rate is also affected by how slippery the surface is.

So all types of surfaces are covered, not just sheer walls.