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<blockquote data-quote="Asisreo" data-source="post: 8355944" data-attributes="member: 7019027">Hm...I think the place we'd disagree on is that the dice are the only way of giving the PCs a chance. For context, if I were to have an Assassin cast Disguise Self (kinda a scummy creation already), it wouldn't be that the player has no chance of detecting them before combat because I would design the situation to have ample opportunity to make the player suspicious. The Assassin might greet the PC but call them sugar instead of honey. They might not know information that the disguised character should know. Point is, I'd give the players chances by design specifically because I don't want to be an inherently hostile DM. However, if I were to flip it to the player's side, I have no real need to protect my NPCs so they are free to make themselves appear disguised and be silent and unnoticeable until the moment to strike. Of course, I might add some tension by having the target say something like &quot;Do you have that report I ordered yesterday?&quot; Or &quot;Remind me what I was supposed to do today again?&quot; Where a player with high deception gets rewarded. [HR][/HR]For a more concrete example with context: The Order of the Rose has been silently stalking the party from the shadows. They know their every move and when they're most vulnerable. An expert assassin, known as The Thorn, is currently hunting the party's monk. He knows that the monk trusts his sensei more than anyone in the world, so The Thorn hatches a devious plan to impersonate the master with a Disguise Self spell. &quot;You walk into the monastery, its a bit dirtier than usual. Your sensei enters the room even though this is his usual training time.&quot; &quot;I ask 'Sensei, what's wrong? You're usually training.'&quot; &quot;Sensei says 'Your return is a cause for celebration after your difficult mission.&quot; &quot;Did my master ever celebrate anything? I want to see if he's lying&quot; &quot;Roll an insight check&quot; (rolls a hidden deception contest, monk fails). &quot;You can't discern if he's lying or not.&quot; &quot;I want to subtly see if there's anything off about him.&quot; &quot;Make a DC 12 Intelligence (Investigation) check&quot; (Spell Save of Assassin, Succeeds). &quot;You discern that its merely an illusion, its not your true master at all!&quot; &quot;'Who are you, impostor!'&quot; &quot;'Mehehe,' the impostor says 'You're more cunning than you look. You are still a fool though, nyeh!' He lunges at you with his dagger drenched in poison, roll initiative!&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Asisreo, post: 8355944, member: 7019027"] Hm...I think the place we'd disagree on is that the dice are the only way of giving the PCs a chance. For context, if I were to have an Assassin cast Disguise Self (kinda a scummy creation already), it wouldn't be that the player has no chance of detecting them before combat because I would design the situation to have ample opportunity to make the player suspicious. The Assassin might greet the PC but call them sugar instead of honey. They might not know information that the disguised character should know. Point is, I'd give the players chances by design specifically because I don't want to be an inherently hostile DM. However, if I were to flip it to the player's side, I have no real need to protect my NPCs so they are free to make themselves appear disguised and be silent and unnoticeable until the moment to strike. Of course, I might add some tension by having the target say something like "Do you have that report I ordered yesterday?" Or "Remind me what I was supposed to do today again?" Where a player with high deception gets rewarded. [HR][/HR] For a more concrete example with context: The Order of the Rose has been silently stalking the party from the shadows. They know their every move and when they're most vulnerable. An expert assassin, known as The Thorn, is currently hunting the party's monk. He knows that the monk trusts his sensei more than anyone in the world, so The Thorn hatches a devious plan to impersonate the master with a Disguise Self spell. "You walk into the monastery, its a bit dirtier than usual. Your sensei enters the room even though this is his usual training time." "I ask 'Sensei, what's wrong? You're usually training.'" "Sensei says 'Your return is a cause for celebration after your difficult mission." "Did my master ever celebrate anything? I want to see if he's lying" "Roll an insight check" (rolls a hidden deception contest, monk fails). "You can't discern if he's lying or not." "I want to subtly see if there's anything off about him." "Make a DC 12 Intelligence (Investigation) check" (Spell Save of Assassin, Succeeds). "You discern that its merely an illusion, its not your true master at all!" "'Who are you, impostor!'" "'Mehehe,' the impostor says 'You're more cunning than you look. You are still a fool though, nyeh!' He lunges at you with his dagger drenched in poison, roll initiative!" [/QUOTE]

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