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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6469396" data-attributes="member: 20323">I think the surprise rules work fine for simple scenarios where the enemies are all pretty much adopting the same strategy. Where I see them breaking down is in more complex scenarios like I describe in my OP - some enemies in pain view, others hidden in the trees.Here's why I have trouble swallowing the surprise rules for that scenario.Let's say there are 2 snipers and 10 bandits in plain view. Let's also say those 2 snipers roll have high Stealth scores and roll exceedingly well on their Stealth checks. The snipers surprise the PCs. Thus, because the PCs are surprised, they cannot act in that first round. Thus, not only do the 2 snipers get to fire, but now all 10 bandits in plain view get to attack. In essence, the 2 hidden snipers have "bought" surprise for the 10 bandits in plain view as well!That's just kooky, obviously <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I mean, someone could say "Well, the PCs are so discombobulated from the sudden ranged fire at them that they don't know what to do, so they stand around with their thumbs up their asses while the bandits they were parlaying with draw swords and wail on them." BUT if you're going to say that then you're setting up a metagame situation where the optimal strategy for any large group of brutes is to have a few super-Stealth guys in hiding. Hah! The goblin surprised you! And now his 30 hobgoblin allies get to wail on you because you're "surprised" that first round of combat. Like I said, kooky <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Compare this to a "surprise round" from older editions, where you'd just have the 2 snipers getting to fire. That seems far more like common sense to me than the way I'm understanding the 5e surprise rules.Heck, it sounds like Chris Perkins even deviated from the 5e surprise rules as written in his Acquisitions Inc. game!</blockquote>

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