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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6470461" data-attributes="member: 20323">My D&D experience includes BD&D, a bit of 1e, lots of 2e, a bit of 3e, a significant amount of 4e, and now enjoying 5e <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I want to clarify something, however. This is not about me wanting to "recreate" some "ideal" surprise rules from my "favorite" edition of D&D. Maybe my group's surprise round rules were house rules in some editions? I don't even remember exactly. If the similar craziness as I describe in post #53 (with 1 goblin rogue causing the PCs to be surprised & his 30 hobgoblin allies then getting to wail on the Surprised PCs the first round) would be possible in older editions, I would still have the same criticism.By the by, I'd be curious to hear your reply about my example in post #53. Does your reading of the rules imply that my interpretation would not be possible? For example, several folks have suggested that since the PCs are aware of the main force of bandits (pirates), then the smaller force cannot surprise the PCs; rather, they can only be hidden. Is that your contention?Or do you actually believe that my example in post #53 makes sense narratively? That being surprised should allow any number of non-ambushers to wail on the surprised character that first roundecause they are so discombobulated from the sniper fire? If you're maintaining the later, well, I am bewildered. If the former, then I suppose it's really about a DM judgment call and not any clear cut rules.Definitely not an argument I'm making. Perhaps you meant to reply to someone else?</blockquote>

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