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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6471185" data-attributes="member: 42582">Rereading Basic, p 69:Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.So the constraint on surprise seems stricter than "1st turn only". It's "start of encounter" only.There is no express statement that the unnoticed threat must activate itself as an element of the encounter, but that seems to be implied. Hence, to me, the most natural reading is that when an unnoticed threat activates itself at the start of the encounter , perhaps by initiating the encounter all on its own, perhaps by participating in conjunction with other noticed threats, then those who failed to notice it are surprised, and hence can't move, take actions or react until after their initiative count has been passed in that first round of the encounter.That is how it seems to me: if the archers in the woods activate themselves at the start of the encounter (eg by shooting arrows at the PCs) and the PCs hadn't noticed them prior to this, then the PCs are surprised and hence will get beaten up in the first round of combat.Basically, this.I don't think so, because the goblins after the first one wouldn't be activating themselves at the start of the encounter.To me this seems to break the rules. The encounter had already started when the wyverns attacked, so the PCs shouldn't have been able to be surprised by them.This is weird, though, because those who roll better on initiative are actually worse off! (My Rolemaster players used to call this being "initiative purged" - especially costly in RM because it can mean you haven't had a chance to declare a defence, and hence can be fairly easily cut down in melee.)A somewhat similar thing comes up in Perkins' example, where the encounter starts before the wyverns can act (presumably because they rolled lower on initiative). Assuming that you are applying the surprise rules in these situations, I think the solution in these sorts of cases is probably to take a bit more advantage, as a GM, of the fact that initiative is an abstraction and all the action is taking place simultaneously: let the archers attack, and then have the visible bandits go, and then roll initiative after that first round. And in the wyvern case, have the GM declare the cultist attacks, then announce the wyverns' presence also ("You also see wyverns that you hadn't noticed swooping in!") - hence the PCs are surprised. Then resolve the melee attacks in initiative order.On this interpretation - which I think is the most natural reading of the rules as written - the surprise rules combine perception and morale into one gestalt whole. This is implicit in the phrase "unnoticed threat".If a gnat is lurking in wait for me as I walk along the garden path, I probably won't notice it, but although unnoticed it is probably not an unnoticed threat. I think the sole goblin sniper with 30 obvious hobgoblins is in the same category: if the PCs are already gearing up to fight 30 hobgoblins one goblin is not a threat. Similarly, if your hidden bandits throw radishes at the PCs, the PCs might be surprised in the colloquial sense, but they have not been subjected to an unnoticed threat. (If the archers have carved the radishes in the shape of arrows - perhaps they are low on arrow heads but nevertheless want to give their visible comrades an advantage - that could be a different matter, perhaps determined by further perception or horticulture checks.)To my mind, this question - what counts as a threat - is one of the places where the "rulings not rules" motif makes sense. (Whereas don't get me started on the syntactic and conceptual mess that is the hiding rules!) It reminds me a bit of Burning Wheel's Steel rules - a surprise attack can force a Steel check, with the possible consequence of being discombobulated and hence vulnerable to all comers. But the GM has authority to decide when a Steel check is triggered. A band of stout dwarves, facing a phalanx of hobgoblins, will not have to make a check just because one goblins jumps out and throws a spear at them!This is an interesting case. As written, the surprise rules seem to assume that it is only at the start of an encounter that the failure of attention and morale that constitutes surprise can take place. That looks like a simplification to facilitate game play and remove the need for some more complex mechanic like BW's Steel.Within the scope of that simplification, the traitor is better of striking in the same round as the goblins attack, rather than waiting to see which way the wind is blowing and then deciding to treach.</blockquote>

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