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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6477208" data-attributes="member: 6787503">I think Quickleaf's ruling is reasonable, keeping in mind that the present rules don't support a "surprise round" as something other than a first round of combat in which a creature is prohibited from acting because it is surprised. I also agree that the rules are open for interpretation. There's simply more than one way to parse the statement, "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." It can be interpreted to mean that if a creature does notice a threat then they cannot be surprised, even by a different threat that was unnoticed, or it can mean that if there is an unnoticed threat, that threat may cause surprise, even if the surprised creature is fully aware of another threat. I would go with the latter interpretation because IMO the rule doesn't seem to talk about an immunity to surprise in the first round due to a creature noticing a threat. Many examples have been given on this thread of seemingly ridiculous situations that would be allowed to incur surprise if my interpretation is followed, so please bear with me while I provide an example of my own:A party of adventurers is facing-off with a band of goblins. Both sides are fully aware of the other and are about to come to blows. Meanwhile, several large, hungry trolls have crept up behind a nearby rock outcropping. Their plan is to take advantage of this divided group and eat as many of them as possible. They leap out at just the right moment, surprising both the adventurers and the goblins... Sounds reasonable, right? Now imagine the same situation, except that the goblins and the trolls are working together. The goblins have agreed, before hand, to distract the adventurers while the trolls get into position, and in return they will get a cut of the treasure and the trolls won't eat them too. They even know exactly where the trolls are hiding. Now given that the goblins haven't given the trolls' position away somehow, and that all the rolls are the same, allowing the trolls to remain hidden, when the trolls jump out, would the party of adventurers still be surprised?I think they would be.</blockquote>

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