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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Azrothan" data-source="post: 6477845" data-attributes="member: 6783904">The interpretation/argument is based on the terms used: "a threat", not by claiming that (not A) = (not B).Any character or monster that doesn't notice [one side] is surprised at the start of the encounter.Any character or monster that doesn't notice [one individual] is surprised at the start of the encounter.PHB mentions sides trying to be stealthy and gives the examples [A band of adventurers] and [A gelatinous cube] as one side of the battle gaining surprise over the other.Now that I've taken time to read up in the book about the potential 3 sides in a combat (or even more, if things get real messy):Given your example with the trolls above, since no 3-way example is mentioned in the book, I would have to interpret the trolls as being a third side in the conflict, thus surprising both goblins and PCs. (not A = not B obviously not being true)If the goblins and trolls were allied instead, I find it hard to see that side of the combat trying to be sneaky when one of the parts is in plain sight.</blockquote>