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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6478180" data-attributes="member: 6787503">My issue with this interpretation is that nowhere do the rules define a threat as being an entire side of a conflict. In fact, they don't define threat at all, which is why I posted a dictionary definition up thread. The DM should determine whether something actually poses a threat. Personally, I'd draw the line at something that can actually do some damage to its opponents, beginning with anything with a CR above 0. If it is impossible for the unnoticed creature to actually inflict harm because of magical protections or high AC, then it is not a threat, but this is something for the DM to decide.Admittedly, the book talks about different sides with reference to surprise. It gives some examples where, "one side of the battle gains surprise over the other," but it doesn't say that surprise can only be gained by one side or the other, in fact, mechanically no one gains surprise at all. Rather, it is inflicted upon those individuals who do not notice a threat.It also says, "If neither side tries to be stealthy they automatically notice each other." This is different from saying that an entire side must try to be stealthy for individuals on that side who are trying to be stealthy to not be noticed.Now to return to my examples, I'm glad you see the logic of both the goblins and the adventurers potentially being surprised by the trolls in the first scenario, but given that the adventurers in the second scenario don't know that the goblins and the trolls are working together, how could that fact influence whether they are surprised?</blockquote>

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