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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cyberen" data-source="post: 6480521" data-attributes="member: 69074">We are hitting the same issues as the "8 level party against CR 13 Dragon" thread initiated by Celtavian.The DM has to pick a style, either going for a "Rules first" or a "Story first" approach.I am not taking sides, but I think this edition is not meant to be pushed too far on the Rules First side : when you try to adjudicate something more complex than an orc with a pie, the rules are not very clear (see our discussion about "a" threat), not very consistent, not very robust (actually giving somebody two turns in a row, with the crazy DPR and mobility given to some PCs and monsters, is really unbalanced).On the other hand, all these rules bugs becomes guidelines features if you take a Story First approach. To adjudicate surprise, use some kind of contested check, and give the parties some kind of bonus or penalty along the line of free movement, winning or losing initiative, getting ad/disad on the first round.For instance, when the adventurers bullying a kobold discover they are actually facing a dragon, you are clearly in the province of "Story First !". Go ahead, give the dragon the opportunity to turn up and land where it wants, and the kobold to step away. Look at your players'faces, and play their feeling up to eleven, be it fear, sorrow, despair, anger or excitement, give them some roll (insight ? Perception ? Combat awareness ? Single or group check ? With or without disad ? Your call according to the player attitude and the character build) not to be denied too much agenda during the 1st round. Total success for the PCs mean they get the jump on the dragon and win initiative (and no LA for the wyrm !). Total failure means they take Frightful Presence + Breath weapon, with disad on one of the saves. Am I following the RAW. No ! Am I ruling in the spirit of 5e ? I bet I am !</blockquote>

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