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<blockquote data-quote="Xetheral" data-source="post: 8400030" data-attributes="member: 6802765">How do you address the issue that the transition to initiative affects surprise, and surprise is (arguably) an in-world phenomenon? Specifically, if you transition to initiative before a hidden character even tries to take a noticable action (maybe they're casting subtle buff spells, or readying actions), the targets will no longer be surprised after their first turn, despite still not knowing what they were surprised by, or why they had to stand around doing nothing for six seconds?As a joke I wrote up a humorous portrayal of this sitatuation years ago for a different thread on a different forum. It seems pertinent here:[Spoiler=Abbot and Costello Roll Initiative Too Early]DM: &quot;You are no longer surprised.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;No longer surprised by what?&quot;DM: &quot;You have no idea.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;Then why am I no longer surprised?&quot;DM: &quot;Because you took your first turn in combat.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;First turn in combat against what?&quot;DM: &quot;You have no idea.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;So... what did I do on my first turn in combat?&quot;DM: &quot;Nothing, you were surprised.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;What surprised me?&quot;DM: &quot;You have no idea.&quot;PLAYER: (sighs) &quot;Can I take my next action to make a perception check?&quot;DM: &quot;That would be metagaming. You don't know anyone is present.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;But I know I was surprised?&quot;DM: &quot;No, nothing has happened yet of which your character is aware.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;Then why did you tell me I am no longer surprised?&quot;DM: &quot;So you could take your action next turn.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;But I can't take any actions based on knowing that we're in initiative, because my character still isn't aware that anything is going on, even though he's not surprised?&quot;DM: &quot;Correct.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;So what am I supposed to do on my turn?&quot;DM: &quot;Whatever you were doing before you had to skip a turn because you were surprised.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;So... why are we in initiative again?&quot;DM: &quot;Because someone took a hostile action.&quot;PLAYER: &quot;Who took a hostile action?&quot;DM: &quot;You have no idea.&quot;[/spoiler]Joking aside, I address the problem at my table with an explicit houserule: if only one character (PC or NPC) wants to act first, then they go first. The houserule is loosely based on the idea that in 5e, you only need ability checks when the outcome is uncertain. If only one character wants to act, there's no uncertainty for initiative to resolve. Everyone else presumably wants to act once the first attack is made (or spell is cast, etc.), so everyone else rolls initiative normally and goes in order after the character who initiated combat. The initiator stays at the top of the order in subsequent rounds.Note that my houserule is not a question of who can shout &quot;I attack&quot; first--it's only triggered when only one character wants to attack at that time.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Xetheral, post: 8400030, member: 6802765"] How do you address the issue that the transition to initiative affects surprise, and surprise is (arguably) an in-world phenomenon? Specifically, if you transition to initiative before a hidden character even tries to take a noticable action (maybe they're casting subtle buff spells, or readying actions), the targets will no longer be surprised after their first turn, despite still not knowing what they were surprised by, or why they had to stand around doing nothing for six seconds? As a joke I wrote up a humorous portrayal of this sitatuation years ago for a different thread on a different forum. It seems pertinent here: [Spoiler=Abbot and Costello Roll Initiative Too Early] DM: "You are no longer surprised." PLAYER: "No longer surprised by what?" DM: "You have no idea." PLAYER: "Then why am I no longer surprised?" DM: "Because you took your first turn in combat." PLAYER: "First turn in combat against what?" DM: "You have no idea." PLAYER: "So... what did I do on my first turn in combat?" DM: "Nothing, you were surprised." PLAYER: "What surprised me?" DM: "You have no idea." PLAYER: (sighs) "Can I take my next action to make a perception check?" DM: "That would be metagaming. You don't know anyone is present." PLAYER: "But I know I was surprised?" DM: "No, nothing has happened yet of which your character is aware." PLAYER: "Then why did you tell me I am no longer surprised?" DM: "So you could take your action next turn." PLAYER: "But I can't take any actions based on knowing that we're in initiative, because my character still isn't aware that anything is going on, even though he's not surprised?" DM: "Correct." PLAYER: "So what am I supposed to do on my turn?" DM: "Whatever you were doing before you had to skip a turn because you were surprised." PLAYER: "So... why are we in initiative again?" DM: "Because someone took a hostile action." PLAYER: "[I]Who[/I] took a hostile action?" DM: "You have no idea."[/spoiler] Joking aside, I address the problem at my table with an explicit houserule: if only one character (PC or NPC) [i]wants[/i] to act first, then they go first. The houserule is loosely based on the idea that in 5e, you only need ability checks when the outcome is uncertain. If only one character wants to act, there's no uncertainty for initiative to resolve. Everyone else presumably wants to act once the first attack is made (or spell is cast, etc.), so everyone else rolls initiative normally and goes in order after the character who initiated combat. The initiator stays at the top of the order in subsequent rounds. Note that my houserule is not a question of who can shout "I attack" first--it's only triggered when only one character [I]wants[/I] to attack at that time. [/QUOTE]

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