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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ThePolarBear" data-source="post: 7027016" data-attributes="member: 6857451">Yup. That for me is using an action, not wasting it. Even if you fail, you attempted something that could have given you a benefit. With "wasting" i meant something like "attacking an PF-bear". That, normally, yelds absolutely nothing since the target of PF simply rationalizes that the sword just went through the creature. Nothing happens. Not even having a clue that the thing he tried to slash is an illusion since there's a rationalization process. There's so much convinction that the action is simply wasted if is not considered something akin to investigating.I do not consider PF overpowered. It's in line with other spells.Imho:Holding one's breath does nothing (well, at the very LEAST for 30 seconds - 5 rounds. And even then, when the time passes, the target would breathe. It's a natural reaction, you TRY to breathe when you really can't hold it anymore). Also, the problem is not that there's acid that would kill the target. A creature in the cube can't breathe since there's no air. You would be breathing gelatine. But that's not what happens inside this illusion and the target would rationalized it somehow (oh lucky the only GC with an air pocket!). Seeing is not impeded, the Cube is trasparent (not because it's an illusion - it's a trait of the cube). Damage is there and rationalized.Why? It tries to move and notices that it's not impeded in any kind of movement. It's not restrained - it can't be. This gets rationalized, but how? The target clearly notices that he can move around and can try to get out of the GC. Prehaps it would not do so, it might still believe that to get out there's the need of help from outside or to pass the check, but movement is not impeded. It can't be.I would like a turn breakdown here, because prehaps we are saying the same things. But i still can't agree that the creature would still be struggling - it's not. It CAN'T BE. The illusion is "you are inside a GC", so that would still remain. The target CANNOT escape the illlusion physically. The illusion would simply follow - the fastest GC in the world, the one with the air pocket and so soft you can walk inside of it!. So, again, why simply not try to leave? The target might believe it's inside a Gelatinous Cube, but all the effects of a GC except the damage are not there. The target would not be able to leave, but that would need a rationalization on why.Prehaps the way that @lkrpeter is looking for describing for the spell limitations is that "You can make someone believe that they can do something that they, in reality, can't - or the opposite. You cannot make so that a creature will not be able to do something that in reality could UNLESS said limitation applies to senses, since the illusion does affect how the target perceives things, or break the illusion in a way that's not by realizing that its, in fact, an illusion - with the investigation check above ". Still unsatisfied, however.Considering that he himself is not inside a "normal" gelatinous cube, that's the least improbable rationalization that the target has to make.Mechanically, prehaps. When you stab something with the intent to kill and the target does nothing to evade, you kill it, if you are competent. The attack, however,  goes through the bear. It's not there. That's what the target needs to rationalize. It can be rationalized as an "i missed", as "the hide is so resistant", but not as "i hit it! I did Damage!" since that did not happen. The illusion is there, unfazed. Same thing with a box, a trap, a cloud of poison, fire, anything. You have to rationalize something that's inconsistent, not make something inconsistent consistent. I was using your (well, what i think is your) view of how the spell works. I know how much damage the spell does. I also know that it's not on the target's part to make the spell do something that was not cast for - like the box leaving the head of the target, or the bear missing.The time spent at minimum is one action, not one turn. It would still deal damage on your first turn, however. And there are not many conditions one can actually inflict that actually are binding (as in, can take hold, not "binding" binding). Again, compare it to Hold Person. Hold Person targets a different save (possibly worse, can't really confirm but i'll take it for true by your words), is limited in the kind of things one can target. But the minimum duration assuming no save is one of the target turns, during which the target is paralyzed - and that's HUGE. Auto crit huge. Auto fail saves huge. Suggestion can be used to keep one creatures out of a fight directly - again, limitations on targeting - and a duration that's VERY long. It can also be used for other uses, possibly more than PF can, and Hold Person is limited for it.Blindness/Deafness do not require concetration so if you are using concentration for something else B/D is one of the few options. Way less utility, however, of Hold Person, if this is even possible.By having the target of the spell have to roll with his action if said action is used to interact with the illusion would brings the spell in line with B/D and HP - one check a turn. Less powerful that HP - it burns only an action, not a turn -, more than B/D - doesn't restrict action economy, restricts the pool of actions. Suggestion does not have other saves, but has an auto free condition.By adding an auto free condition you are reducing the spell a little bit too much Imho.</blockquote>

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