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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4153436" data-attributes="member: 40961">Was this question asked in good faith?Kobold: CR 1/4, Str 9, BAB +1, Size Small, Grapple -4 as a resultAncient Red Dragon: CR 23, Str 39, BAB 34, Size Gargantuan, Grapple +60 as a resultTake away the size modifiers, and you getKobold Grapple: +0Ancient Red Dragon Grapple: +480 does not equal 48.Let me restate the matter clearly.  Many high level monsters in 3e grapple, because a huge monster that picks up your PC and bashes him into the floor is kind of cool.  Your primary defenses against having this happen to you are, first, your touch AC, second, your grapple check, third, your escape artist check if applicable, and fourth, teleportation, freedom of action, and other magical countermeasures.  The problem is that three out of four of these things are worthless.Your touch AC isn't going to help you.  You must have an awful lot of confidence in your touch AC if you think that a high level grappling monster will be swayed by it in the slightest.  This is especially true for characters like Fighters.  Perhaps the 4e math will change this a bit, but that's how it was in 3e.Your grapple check won't help you either.  Your 3e grapple check scales at the same rate as your BAB and your Strength, but, the monster's grapple check scales at the same rate, plus more.  What does the monster get that you don't?  First, your overall attack bonus is calibrated as if you had relevant magical weaponry, and for normal attacks is calibrated against the monster's overall bonus.  However, when you start grappling, you don't get to use your shiny magical sword.  You lose an advantage that was necessary to keep you even, and the monster doesn't.  Then, the monster usually gets a size modifier that you do not receive.  Now you're behind by, usually, over 10 points.  And in an opposed check, that's an enormous difference in odds.  Feats really won't help you, either, as the difference is simply too vast.  After all, even a level 20 fighter with a strength of 30 is looking at a grapple check of a whopping +30.  That's useless against even a CR 12 purple worm, with its grapple of +40.Escape Artist won't help you either, for the same reasons, except that you had to pay skill points to suck at escape artist, and you get to suck at defensive grappling for free.That leaves magical countermeasures.  These tend to work automatically, with no chance of failure.  That's... kind of lame.So grappling is being reworked.  One of the problems, size modifiers to grapple, is being axed.  This is probably a good thing, as 1) it helps the overall situation, and 2) kobolds clinging to your legs and biting you is kind of cool.And no, this doesn't mean that a kobold gets to grapple just as well as an ancient dragon.  Unless its a kobold with 23 character class levels in a martial class, and an elite ability score array, in which case it might get close.  I don't know why you thought otherwise, but consider the matter settled.</blockquote>

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