D&D 5E How far can you nerf spellcasting and still consider it DnD5?

[bedir than]

Nerfing cantrips is fairly common, it seems. A standard response seems to take these down from the at will state to something that involves using each X number of times based on some combination of ability score modifier, number of cantrips knowns and level per long rest. The impact of this means that a primary caster will have to manage their resource economy in similar ways to martial only builds.

Those that would change the rest periods from short is an hour and long is eight hours to the variant of short equals an evening and long equals a rest day during a week, usually in some kind of sanctuary, also change the resource management of casters. Many who use this technique also change the pace of play, but if that isn't done casters are again reduced in power relative to non-casters.

But what if you want a lower magic world than doing both of these options? How would you do that while still allowing magic?

What if all non-cantrip spell magic (spells, invocations, ki) was rituals? Is that still DnD5? Could it be fun?

Would another option be reducing the number of spells used per long rest? Is it still DnD5? Is it still fun?

If you had a world where there was no spellcasting, but still some of the other spell-like abilities thereby changing the flavor of the world entirely are you playing the wrong game?

Building these various world concepts changes things so dramatically from DnD5, but also from most published settings (Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Spelljammer are the ones with which I'm familiar). Doing this does create intrigue. It breaks most known meta-gaming because it is untested.

Is there enough pay-off with such heavy house rules that it can be more than a gimmick?

 

[Greg K]

Some of the official 2e class books as well as articles in 3e Dragon by WOTC designers discuss all thieve campaigns and all fighter campaigns. Therefore, in my opinion, spell casters are not necessary for the game to be D&D.

 

[Zaran]

Why do you even think they need to be nerfed? They have so few spells and cantrips will never become better than a martial classes abilities.

 

[Chocolategravy]

Low magic still feels like D&D, Conan is a good example. The reverse isn't true, 4E didn't feel like D&D because all the classes that were supposedly non-magical could push/pull/slide/AE just like casters and had "I can only swing my sword this way once per day" powers that felt magical, used nonsensical stats to hit or dodge attacks with that have no basis in physics based combat so seemed magical and felt like a video game.

 

[SirAntoine]

Low magic still feels like D&D, Conan is a good example. The reverse isn't true, 4E didn't feel like D&D because all the classes that were supposedly non-magical could push/pull/slide/AE just like casters and had "I can only swing my sword this way once per day" powers that felt magical, used nonsensical stats to hit or dodge attacks with that have no basis in physics based combat so seemed magical and felt like a video game.

That is just 4e. When I think of high magic in D&D, I don't think of 4e. Low magic fits Conan pretty well, but only for the PC's in my opinion. The villain wizards were still super powerful.

 

[SirAntoine]

Nerfing cantrips is fairly common, it seems. A standard response seems to take these down from the at will state to something that involves using each X number of times based on some combination of ability score modifier, number of cantrips knowns and level per long rest. The impact of this means that a primary caster will have to manage their resource economy in similar ways to martial only builds.

Those that would change the rest periods from short is an hour and long is eight hours to the variant of short equals an evening and long equals a rest day during a week, usually in some kind of sanctuary, also change the resource management of casters. Many who use this technique also change the pace of play, but if that isn't done casters are again reduced in power relative to non-casters.

But what if you want a lower magic world than doing both of these options? How would you do that while still allowing magic?

What if all non-cantrip spell magic (spells, invocations, ki) was rituals? Is that still DnD5? Could it be fun?

Would another option be reducing the number of spells used per long rest? Is it still DnD5? Is it still fun?

If you had a world where there was no spellcasting, but still some of the other spell-like abilities thereby changing the flavor of the world entirely are you playing the wrong game?

Building these various world concepts changes things so dramatically from DnD5, but also from most published settings (Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Spelljammer are the ones with which I'm familiar). Doing this does create intrigue. It breaks most known meta-gaming because it is untested.

Is there enough pay-off with such heavy house rules that it can be more than a gimmick?

If you make magic rarer or less powerful, that would be as fun as you make it. Cantrips being 0-level spells again, with a small number of uses, would be fine.

 

[Paraxis]

Does it matter? Honestly if you want a 3 ring binder full of house rules to have fun, I wouldn't say your group is playing 5e anymore but what does anyone elses opinion on what you are playing matter if your group is having fun.

As to the issue of magic and D&D, there was a setting called Gothic Earth/Masque of the Red Death for 2e and it was very low magic everyone I know still considers it D&D.

 

[evilives]

In addition to the previously mentioned Red Death setting, TSR also did a run of historical campaign sourcebooks for 2e (Vikings, Celts, Charlemagne) that drastically limited available spell schools. The Lankhmar setting somewhat limited spell selection and also cranked up spell casting times.

If you don't mind unwieldiness, you could try creating freaky requirements for each spell, like this:

All magic is created by the action of entities from elsewhere. These entities have personalities, needs, desires and so on. You have to get along with these things or they don’t do their thing. Magic is not electricity. Magic is relationships.

Finger of Death: When you cast this spell you call upon a spirit which hungers for the flesh. Unfortunately its incorporeal touch means death for any living thing.

Her price: On the longest night of the year she takes corporeal form and demands from you a bath in water perfumed with poppies and rare spices. The bath costs you a lost night of sleep (no long rest for you) and a lot of coin, but that’s not the kicker. The soap for her bath must be fashioned from the rendered fat of seven human infants whom you have smothered in their sleep with your own two hands. Fail to pay her price and any zombies that you have created by means of this spell immediately turn on you. Also, the spirit comes for you every night (you are targeted by a finger of death every time you take a long rest) until her price is met.

 

[dracomilan]

My campaign setting, Alfeimur, was designed to nerf magical powers during 3.x times. Arcane magic is wild magic and can summon magic storms. Divine magic is limited since the true Gods died and now only pale reflections are granting powers and so on.
Now I'm struggling a little with adapting it to 5e, since casters are already balanced. I need to keep the flavour without removing essential skills.
My testing has convinced me so far to limit at wills, introduce Faith/Corruption points for clerics and warlocks and keep the looming menace of an arcane storm for everybody else.
So right now it is low magic and unpredictable without too many modifications.

 

[Shiroiken]

I feel that 5E is a basic framework that you can do pretty much anything with. If you want to change up the magic system, by all means do so (they even have an example in the DMG). This doesn't make it non-5E, since it's designed to be modified, as shown by all the variants in the PHB, MM, and DMG.