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How Far Could D&D Change--And STILL Be D&D?
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<blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 8690466" data-attributes="member: 6801845"><p>It's hard to discuss some of this because it's all personal perspective and I don't want to get into edition wars. Whether you liked 4E, thought it was a good game or not (I thought it had some good ideas but it was badly rushed), it didn't "feel" like D&D to a lot of people. I am not saying this was a universal feeling.</p><p></p><p>Yes, we still had things like ability scores, HP, AC. The labels were the same. We still rolled D20s and whatnot. But the aspects that made it feel like it was "not" D&D was giving everyone a similar structure for all classes, tried to encapsulate most of the things that could be accomplished into powers. Powers, for those that didn't play were broken down into AEDU, at-will, encounter, daily and utility. What they did was encapsulate much of the rules into bite-sized chunks.</p><p></p><p>So fighters had something like this random 1st level encounter power:</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Cleave</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">fighter attack 1</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong><a href="https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/At-will_power" target="_blank">At-Will</a></strong> ✦ <a href="https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Martial" target="_blank">Martial</a>, <a href="https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Weapon_(keyword)" target="_blank">Weapon</a></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong><a href="https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Action" target="_blank">Standard Action</a></strong></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><a href="https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_attack" target="_blank">Melee</a> Weapon</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong><a href="https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Target" target="_blank">Target</a>:</strong> one creature</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong><a href="https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_roll" target="_blank">Attack</a>:</strong> Strength vs. AC</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Hit:</strong> "1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and an enemy adjacent to you other than the target takes damage equal to your Strength modifier.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">"Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>You had other powers that could impose conditions like stun, force movement and so on.</p><p></p><p>The advantage of this is that everything you could do was right there. The disadvantage was that everything you could do was right there. This led too often in my experience to people not thinking outside of the (power) box. But it had a related issue in that everyone's primary actions in combat had limits on how often they could be used. You could only "cleave" once per encounter. You had other powers like Brute Strike (triple weapon damage) that you could only use once a day. </p><p></p><p>Since every class followed this same pattern, hitting the same beats and tones so to speak, it was hard to justify the fiction. Why could I only cleave once per encounter? If there was a second wave, you can't use it. But if you have a quick nap, you can do it again. Have multiple encounter powers and would like to use cleave more than once? Too bad.</p><p></p><p>Again, this did not make 4E a bad game. It just made it not feel like D&D to some.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Oofta, post: 8690466, member: 6801845"] It's hard to discuss some of this because it's all personal perspective and I don't want to get into edition wars. Whether you liked 4E, thought it was a good game or not (I thought it had some good ideas but it was badly rushed), it didn't "feel" like D&D to a lot of people. I am not saying this was a universal feeling. Yes, we still had things like ability scores, HP, AC. The labels were the same. We still rolled D20s and whatnot. But the aspects that made it feel like it was "not" D&D was giving everyone a similar structure for all classes, tried to encapsulate most of the things that could be accomplished into powers. Powers, for those that didn't play were broken down into AEDU, at-will, encounter, daily and utility. What they did was encapsulate much of the rules into bite-sized chunks. So fighters had something like this random 1st level encounter power: [INDENT]Cleave[/INDENT] [INDENT]fighter attack 1[/INDENT] [INDENT][B][URL='https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/At-will_power']At-Will[/URL][/B] ✦ [URL='https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Martial']Martial[/URL], [URL='https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Weapon_(keyword)']Weapon[/URL][/INDENT] [INDENT][B][URL='https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Action']Standard Action[/URL][/B][/INDENT] [INDENT][URL='https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_attack']Melee[/URL] Weapon[/INDENT] [INDENT][B][URL='https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Target']Target[/URL]:[/B] one creature[/INDENT] [INDENT][B][URL='https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_roll']Attack[/URL]:[/B] Strength vs. AC[/INDENT] [INDENT][B]Hit:[/B] "1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and an enemy adjacent to you other than the target takes damage equal to your Strength modifier. "Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] You had other powers that could impose conditions like stun, force movement and so on. The advantage of this is that everything you could do was right there. The disadvantage was that everything you could do was right there. This led too often in my experience to people not thinking outside of the (power) box. But it had a related issue in that everyone's primary actions in combat had limits on how often they could be used. You could only "cleave" once per encounter. You had other powers like Brute Strike (triple weapon damage) that you could only use once a day. Since every class followed this same pattern, hitting the same beats and tones so to speak, it was hard to justify the fiction. Why could I only cleave once per encounter? If there was a second wave, you can't use it. But if you have a quick nap, you can do it again. Have multiple encounter powers and would like to use cleave more than once? Too bad. Again, this did not make 4E a bad game. It just made it not feel like D&D to some. [/QUOTE]
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