How far is far?

Michael Morris

First Post
Hello all. It's been a very long time since I've posted to this forumn. I've been very busy with something d20 related that I'm not at liberty to talk about for now.

Anyway, I would like to talk a little about distances in both the real world and campaign worlds. Much of this is drawn from my experiences as a truck driver. When your business is to drive 500 miles every day, you start to come to grips with how far, far really is.

Distance distortion is the most common error seen in campaign settings. Kalamar and Ravenloft are the only major settings which, for the most part, get things right, but even they tend to forget a few details about distances. I won't say Dusk is perfect in this regard either, but I have paid close attention to this detail even before beginning my driving career.

By clearing one common misconception about distances a lot can be done to make your world a lot larger than it may first appear. Mainly, your maps of your setting give you a good idea of the flight distances between cities in your setting. They do not, however, give you a good estimate of how far one has to travel overland.

Consider the following. Lexington Kentucky (KY) and Cincinatti Ohio (OH) are 105 miles apart by air. By interstate though they are 115 miles apart. Now, if a modern day freeway loses 10 miles to curves and meanders between the two you can imagine the distance lost to medieval paths. US-27, an older road between the two, goes for 140 miles. This is a 35% increase in distance between the two cities. They haven't moved at all, but depending on the quality of the roads you choose the distance can increase. And these cases are for Northern Kentucky - a somewhat hilly area, but by no means mountainous or flat (indeed, it is pretty typical for most terrains you'll find - flat plains are the exception, not the rule).

A good rule of thumb is this. Any established medieval road will by 50% farther than the air miles between two points on a map as it meanders about. If the players must blaze their own trail, then their base distance will be double normal - but allow them to roll a Survival (Wilderness Lore in 3.0) check DC 20 to reduce the distance they need to travel - 5% for each 2 points the check is made by. Hence on a check of 26, the distance is reduced to 185% of the air miles. (6 beyond DC 20). The minimum distance remains 150% of the air miles unless - obviously - the characters can fly.

You can of course play with this. If a road must skirt a particularly large mountain or navigate it's way to a pass in a mountain chain then the distance can be increased tremendously. Old roads through mountains can run 3 times as far as the distance by air.

Once you have your travel distances, you're ready to tackle time. Typically a caravan can only manage 1 MPH or 10 miles in a day. An adventuring party can usually cover twice this distance since they have lighter equipment to pack around. Progress can be greatly hindered by the lack of a clear trail though.

Most people tend not to travel more than an hour from home for any normal reason - now or then. However, since a car can go 60 miles in that hour and one can at best manage 4 miles on foot it can quickly become apparent as to why distances between villages can be so close on a European or Eastern US map - these settlements were founded in the days of foot and horse travel - before the rise of the automobile.

Villages are typically two hours apart from each other by foot. Major towns are typically one day's travel from each other and tend to be strung in chains between major cities. Cities arise either due to a crossroads situation (Atlanta Georgia), Major Port (New York City) both (Chicago Illinois), or wealth of nearby resources (Pittsburgh Pennsylvania).

Oh well, I hope this is useful. Take care all.
 

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Why is this in house rules? It almost seems like it oughta be in general discussion. :)

Interesting stuff, definitely. Now we just need guidelines for how big countries should be.

For instance, in my game world, over a span of land that is about the size of the continental United States (what, maybe a 2500 mile square?) I've got a huge diversity of cultures. Three major Elf nations, Arabic-esque cultures, Native American-esque cultures, Greco-Roman cultures, and Norse-esque cultures. Is that a reasonable spread of cultures for such a small area? In the US that might seem kinda ridiculous, but in Europe you have all that and more, and I think Europe's fairly close in size.

And I've got good explanations for it. Elves and primitive man were native to the continent first, with lots of nomadic mantribes and several Elvish nations. After a thousand years or so, another human group shows up from another continent and proceeds to try to conquer this new land. Eventually the humans displace the Elves into small pockets and set up their own nations, with various mixes of native primitive man's culture, Elvish culture, and their own from their homelands.

Then a few hundred years later, after the new nations have become independent of the old continent they came from, a new warlord starts to conquer and manages to create a new empire that controls the world. But he's eventually overthrown and the world falls into various pockets of dark ages, with the lands that were closest to the huge empire's seat of power being the most laid waste to. The further away areas continue to develop on their own and become more advanced, and each separately try to forge their way away from what the empire was. Over the three thousand that pass since the fall of that huge empire, a lot changed. Even some of the old primitive tribes advance to have their own nations, and in some places the Elves regain their old holdings.

I've got a good 14 different countries in that one continent, plus various city-states in remote areas. Is that too much, do you think?



Oh, and here's a good question. How do you make PCs really feel the distance they're traveling if you don't want to have tons of random encounters that bog down storytelling? Just describing the terrain they're passing through never enticed my players, and if I tried to drop random plot hooks for them to possibly get interested in, they tended to think every one of them was important.
 

RangerWickett said:
Why is this in house rules? It almost seems like it oughta be in general discussion.

Or Plots & Places.

I've got a good 14 different countries in that one continent, plus various city-states in remote areas. Is that too much, do you think?

Not at all. In Early mediaeval times there were seven kingdoms in what is now England, two or more in what is now Scotland, and about four principalities in what is now Wales. At least thirteen kingdoms, five language groups, and four cultures on an island that would fit in between my house and the state capital.

Oh, and here's a good question. How do you make PCs really feel the distance they're traveling if you don't want to have tons of random encounters that bog down storytelling?

Costs. "After four days riding through the plains, you run out of fresh food." "That's, umm, seventeen days' travel: 4 ozols a night for your beds in inns, one ozol a night for each servant, and seven ozols a nights for each horse, plus five ozols per day for meals for PCs, thee ozols per day for meals for servants, and eight ozols per day for fodder for horses, umm, 47 ozols per day for each of you. Throw in an ozol per day for incidental expenses and call it eight drams per day. Not counting the wages of your servants it's going to cost each of you six and a half bezants to get to Ekbatana."

Change of seasons: "You set out from Persepolis just as the blossom is falling from the plums. The fields are green with new barley in Medea, the cherries ripe when you reach the Pontehellenico. The Alten plain seems half deserted as you cross it, because the men are away with the cattle in the high pastures, and the women are making hay for next winter. The acorns are falling from the oaks as you cross the Durane Mountains, and when you reach Aquileia the vintage has begun."

Dates, festivals, and anniversaries: "You spend your first wedding anniversary on the Spanish Main. Ineffabelle is a thousand leagues away."

Progress of events: "When you get to Poros more news has arrived from Sunderland. Philippus was assassinated on St John's Eve: the Isles have revolted, and Devlin has taken out the fleet to restore Gyrmorian rule." "When you pass through Kyropylae on the way back Lysandra is married, and has a grey-eyed toddler clinging to her skirts. The boy looks a lot more like you than he does like Bob."

Regards,


Agback

{edited to mend coding}
 
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Agback said:
Dates, festivals, and anniversaries: "You spend your first wedding anniversary on the Spanish Main. Ineffabelle is a thousand leagues away."

Great name! I've known quite a few people, of both genders, who should have been called Ineffabelle.
 

Olive said:
Great name! I've known quite a few people, of both genders, who should have been called Ineffabelle.

<blushes>

Don't thank me, thank Stanislaw Lem. Princess Ineffabelle was a character in, if memory serves, The Seventh Sally.

Regards,


Agback
 

Micheal_Morris and Agback

Thanks for some great information!

You also notice that Villages and towns in Europe tend to be much smaller in area, almost claustrophobic, than modern towns. This due to the need for mutual protection against bandits and in times of war.
 

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