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How fast does PC damage rise relative to monster hit points?
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6482506" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Very good post here. </p><p></p><p>I think for your "leader-heavy group" you need to add "The Warlord Caveat." My first 4e game featured 3 PCs; a DPS/OA optimized Fighter, Twin Strike melee Ranger, and a Warlord that would enormously force-multiply both. I think that would fit your "leader-heavy group" (1/3 of the PCs). In effect, it basically turned out to be a 3 striker party with heavy melee control, skirmishing capacity, lots of survivability, short on the ranged/AoE capacity. Put them against heavy control elements, terrain, hazards, and protected artillery and they'd struggle. Short of that? Everything was a beatdown.</p><p></p><p>My second 4e game featured your striker/controller setup; Bladesinger, (Duelist) Rogue, Swarm Druid (rebuilt several times into varying specs from severe control to hybrid warlord with lots of summoning/animal companinos and force-multiplying). It was particularly nasty against everything, to be honest. And fights were not long. A level + 2 combat that lasted more than 4 rounds was out of the norm. Their SOP setup funneled the Brutes/Skirmishers/Soldiers/Minions to the Bladesinger who basically had perma-bladesong and was a supercharged, OA-riposte factory while the Rogue and Druid burned down Artillery, Leaders, and Lurkers. For the encounter budget of 3 PCs, it was an extremely difficult group to solve. All 3 PCs were extremely survivable and mobile as well. Enormous number of shifts, teleports, defense augments (minor actions, riders, and immediate actions), damage reduction (including elements), daily attack denials, etc. The best strategy for causing them problems were to ablate their collective Healing Surges through Skill Challenges and then spend a fair share of combat encounter budgets on traps/hazards that protected hard-to-get-at, heavy-hitting Artillery.</p><p></p><p>I see people talk about the slog of 4e regularly. I've never seen it in person. Part of that is because I've only played with 3 PCs (+ 1 companion). Part of that is because my players are decisive and quick on their feet (as am I) and we don't do the deliberate excessively on your turn Curiously enough, whereas people always say that off-turn actions slow the game down, I've actually found the inverse. Part of that is because of the prevalence of off-turn actions (used decisively) for the Fighter/Bladesinger/Rogue that worked out to be considerable supplementation of the round's aggregate damage output for team PC. I think I said before that each turn of the PCs would take somewhere around 45 second - 1 minute to declare action and resolve. I might take 1.5 - 2 minutes for the entirety of enemy actions and book-keeping. 5 minutes per round (max) * 4 rounds is a typical 20 minute fight. Drawing the map would take 5-10 minutes (less if I had them help). Big time, set-pieces with huge encounter budgets would be 2 - 2.5 * that amount of time and the far end of the spectrum in time for setup...so maybe 50 minutes to an hour.</p><p></p><p>Haven't witnessed a low DPR, high # of PC, heavy deliberation of each action groups where off-turn actions bog down play. I can conceive it...just haven't seen it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6482506, member: 6696971"] Very good post here. I think for your "leader-heavy group" you need to add "The Warlord Caveat." My first 4e game featured 3 PCs; a DPS/OA optimized Fighter, Twin Strike melee Ranger, and a Warlord that would enormously force-multiply both. I think that would fit your "leader-heavy group" (1/3 of the PCs). In effect, it basically turned out to be a 3 striker party with heavy melee control, skirmishing capacity, lots of survivability, short on the ranged/AoE capacity. Put them against heavy control elements, terrain, hazards, and protected artillery and they'd struggle. Short of that? Everything was a beatdown. My second 4e game featured your striker/controller setup; Bladesinger, (Duelist) Rogue, Swarm Druid (rebuilt several times into varying specs from severe control to hybrid warlord with lots of summoning/animal companinos and force-multiplying). It was particularly nasty against everything, to be honest. And fights were not long. A level + 2 combat that lasted more than 4 rounds was out of the norm. Their SOP setup funneled the Brutes/Skirmishers/Soldiers/Minions to the Bladesinger who basically had perma-bladesong and was a supercharged, OA-riposte factory while the Rogue and Druid burned down Artillery, Leaders, and Lurkers. For the encounter budget of 3 PCs, it was an extremely difficult group to solve. All 3 PCs were extremely survivable and mobile as well. Enormous number of shifts, teleports, defense augments (minor actions, riders, and immediate actions), damage reduction (including elements), daily attack denials, etc. The best strategy for causing them problems were to ablate their collective Healing Surges through Skill Challenges and then spend a fair share of combat encounter budgets on traps/hazards that protected hard-to-get-at, heavy-hitting Artillery. I see people talk about the slog of 4e regularly. I've never seen it in person. Part of that is because I've only played with 3 PCs (+ 1 companion). Part of that is because my players are decisive and quick on their feet (as am I) and we don't do the deliberate excessively on your turn Curiously enough, whereas people always say that off-turn actions slow the game down, I've actually found the inverse. Part of that is because of the prevalence of off-turn actions (used decisively) for the Fighter/Bladesinger/Rogue that worked out to be considerable supplementation of the round's aggregate damage output for team PC. I think I said before that each turn of the PCs would take somewhere around 45 second - 1 minute to declare action and resolve. I might take 1.5 - 2 minutes for the entirety of enemy actions and book-keeping. 5 minutes per round (max) * 4 rounds is a typical 20 minute fight. Drawing the map would take 5-10 minutes (less if I had them help). Big time, set-pieces with huge encounter budgets would be 2 - 2.5 * that amount of time and the far end of the spectrum in time for setup...so maybe 50 minutes to an hour. Haven't witnessed a low DPR, high # of PC, heavy deliberation of each action groups where off-turn actions bog down play. I can conceive it...just haven't seen it. [/QUOTE]
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How fast does PC damage rise relative to monster hit points?
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