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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5425550" data-attributes="member: 78116">For someone who claims they are a "tactical" player, your ability to actually make a good argument on sound tactics isn't very good. Admin here. Your point becomes much weaker when you have to insult someone to make it. Don't do this again, please. ~ PiratecatFirstly, let's look at the DPR of a power before and after the penalty is applied.Edit: I changed the maths below because I realize an illusionist mage proves my argument so hard it isn't funny.A creature with a 60% chance to hit dealing 4d6+6 damage, +6 vs AC attack against a PC with AC 14 (which is pretty bad I must admit): Avg damage: 4d6+6 = 20 points of damage (ouch).Actual DPR of the power (including accuracy) is,Damage =  ((0.6*20)+(0.05*20)) = 13 DPR. With -2 penalty from illusory ambush. -4 penalty if we're talking about an illusionist mage who is being attacked by that creature.Damage = ((0.5*20)+(0.05*20)) = 11 DPR.Damage = ((0.4*20)+(0.05*20)) = 9 DPR (against yourself).So even though your argument seems correct, the actual effect is immediate. Dropping the monsters damage quite a bit. Especially the illusionist mage.Now hitting the AC 18 defender (not even the best for a defender, but solid IMO).Damage =  ((0.4*20)+(0.05*20)) = 9 DPR. With -2 penalty.Damage = ((0.3*20)+(0.05*20)) = 7 DPR.Now we'll put on apprentice illusionist and a mark, hitting the previously squishy character - who is the mage in this case - of AC 14 (to get your 60%). The mark imposes a -2 penalty and illusionist wizard apprentice feature imposes a -2 penalty, for a grand total of -6 penalty on illusory ambush.With -2 penalty for the mark alone.Damage = ((0.5*20)+(0.05*20)) = 11 DPR.With a -6 penalty from Illusory Ambush + Apprentice Illusionist + mark.Damage = ((0.3*20)+(0.05*20)) = 7 DPR (less than half without the mark)Without the mark and a mere "-4" penalty. This would be illusory ambush + apprentice mage.Damage = ((0.4*20)+(0.05*20)) = 9 DPR (Still a considerable reduction).So we immediately see where your argument falls over flat. When we combine that -2 penalty with the easily available feature for the illusionist mage, plus a mark that penalty suddenly becomes an insurmountable problem for the creature. Where before he could do a very solid amount of damage, the penalties ensure that the creatures DPR against the non-defender (especially the wizard who imposed it to begin with) is plain awful. When attacking the defender the accumulated penalties negates combat advantage and makes their life very difficult. So here we see where a control power like illusory ambush is flat out superior to MM - unarguably.The penalty to hit impacts a creatures DPR negatively the higher its damage actually is as well. When you combine illusory ambush with the penalty for mark you increase the defenders resilience again (now the defender is effectively in full plate + heavy shield), but you also vastly reduce the creatures ability to hurt anyone else if it somehow escapes the defender. The wizard with 14 AC looks a lot better when the monster is attacking it at equal AC to the defender effectively (due to -2 penalty mark, -2 penalty psychic bolt). In addition to this, the above is an encounter power and the monster either lands it or waffs it. The more chance of the monster waffing the power the better for you. This is why MM is inferior to PB control wise. MM doesn't stop that creature slamming a poor defense character with that power anywhere near as effectively. In fact, it doesn't do absolutely anything whatsoever except inflict a poor amount of damage.Edit: My arguments above are even more valid than I realized. An illusion mage gets psychic lock as an apprentice feature! Only when you are attacked, but none the less when we combine that with psychic lock at level 11 we end up with a monstrous attack penalty. That wizard will be quite able to secure his life against pesky enemies.</blockquote>

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