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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5431981" data-attributes="member: 78116">Never. Because at the end of the combat if the combat is close, if the enemies can attack you at whim because your controller is doing a poor job 7 damage is not significant. Forcing a creature to do something that it didn't want to do, like plunge off a cliff or fall prone from a slide? That's significant.That's the point.With good tactics, yes they can indeed.With poor tactics, 7ish damage is indeed better.Yes.A slide 1 back into the fighter for a marked enemy? That's control.A slide 1 away from a flanking position? That's control.A slide 1 away from a character with ranged attacks? That's control.A slide 1 between two allies to gain CA? That's control.A slide 1 out of reach of the creature to break a grab? That's control.A slow on a melee enemy that is too far away to charge? That's control.A slow on an artillery enemy in difficult terrain? That's control.A slow on an enemy that is marked by a fighter? That's control.A slow on an enemy that is in difficult terrain? That's control.A -2 penalty on any enemy? By default, this is control (indisputably).A -2 penalty on a marked enemy? That's major control.A -2 penalty on an enemy that has CA? That's bringing things back to even.A -2 penalty on an enemy that has any kind of other penalty? That's just making them even more useless = more control.Yes, because you can make the brute take an entirely different route or suffer damage to reach the ranger. And magic missile has zero control of any kind whatsoever. It literally does nothing except a small amount of insignificant damage. A point that you continue to ignore.He can't when it's not his turn, making this point absolutely irrelevant. Because during the time it is not "his turn" the enemy can do a lot of things, including finishing off the character. Things that if it is slowed, has a penalty or was shifted into a difficult position it could not do on its own turn.You know, my first ever near-TPK in 4th edition started with a wizard doing this. Without a controller to well, control the monsters the party ended up being manipulated precisely where the monsters wanted. The result was not pretty whatsoever and only one PC left the encounter alive (the other 4 were all dead).I agree with this, but this is because the defender now has to pick and choose his targets more than they did before. In my current games, I am burning through the surges of just about everyone in the party. That's more the damage and powers of current MM3+ monsters though. Out of 15 encounters thus far I can give you around 45-60 examples of combat advantage of any sort making a huge difference if a PC or monster hit or missed.That's pretty consistent to me. Also a monster that gets CA over multiple attacks will increase its damage considerably - just like one with a penalty will have the opposite effect. My example showed just how powerful a creature becomes with constant CA. Your argument that it's a mere "10%" rings hollow when creatures attack multiple times - like pretty much every single solo in 4E (also, a time where MM is especially useless btw). A single chilling cloud that slid the creature away would have made a bigger difference - even if it could miss - than when the wizard choose to use MM instead. Keeping the CA from flanking for 2 rounds made a massive difference to the creatures damage output. It would never have got many of those hits if the PCs didn't let it stand in CA. A "mere" 10% difference adds up to the paladin doing nothing for two entire rounds of the combat by being unconscious.I have hordes of these examples as well from the 2 years I've been running games if you'd like more btw. One of the best feats that I can think of, that has prevented more hits than I can think of is uncanny dodge. Not granting that +2 bonus from CA over an entire game adds up to a lot of missed hits. So too does applying a -2 penalty to an enemies attacks, especially when you stack these penalties. There is simply no way, unless I knew MM would kill the creature - disputable as has already been argued - that MM is better than using an actual at-will unless you have a massive penalty to hit or your enemy is a wraith (which is uniquely vulnerable to the force damage of MM).Edit: Incidentally for what it is worth in the game where the Paladin got hammered by a monster that had CA against him, the party finished with HP totals in single digits except for one of them. An entire character was basically eliminated for most of the combat due to being unconscious and the persistence of the monsters to attack whom they wanted took its toll on the party. That's why "Not being hit" is the best form of control other than killing something, so when you can prevent an enemy from hitting you it matters.</blockquote>

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