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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5432714" data-attributes="member: 2011">-2 for 3 attacks in 6 with a 60% chance of occurring so that it is the equivalent of -0.6 is fairly irrelevant compared to the boatload of constant bonuses that you added for your example against the lowest defense of the monster?Yes, one can game the system by taking as many bonus to hit options as possible.A +2 implement at level 4 (like what occurs on the PBP games, but typically not in table games)Taking Expertise, the purpose of which is to fix the math bug starting at level 5, so taking it at level 4 is getting an extra boost.Even taking Superior Implements.But, let's look at your same example at level 10 (or level 11 with a +3 implement) against a typical range of monsters:+2 Implement (assuming that one gets +1/+2 in Heroic, +3/+4 in Paragon, etc.)+1 Expertise+6 Int+5 Half LevelAnd no combat advantage every single round.Illusory AmbushWill is typically the easiest NAD to hit with a range of Level+9 through Level+14 (for will resistant elites) and a typical average of Level+11.Level 10: 55% to 80% of the time, average 70%.Level 11: 50% to 75% of the time, average 65%.Level 12: 45% to 70% of the time, average 60%.Level 13: 40% to 65% of the time, average 55%.So yes, the wimpiest monster PCs generally face gets hit with the equivalent of a +4 bonus with magic missile as you claim (+2 with combat advantage or power bonus, etc.), but the tougher higher level Elites get hit with the equivalent of a +12 bonus with MM.Even for this relatively decked out (but not maxxed) to hit Wizard though, using Ray of Frost against Fort means a delta of +6 to +14.And note: I did not say that it was irrelevant. I said that attacking with it rarely causes the monster to miss. That's apples to oranges to what your example illustrates.In order for the -2 to occur, the PC has to hit. For the -2 to have an effect, the monster attack has to be 1 of the 2 to hit numbers out of 20 where the outcome is changed.That is totally different than a constant +2 implement that happens on every single attack in a round.+2 * 100% of attacks = +2.-2 * 3 attacks in 6 * 60% that the attacks hits = -0.6. Even if you attack with the power every single round of an encounter, it's still only -1.2 cause the power won't hit every time.</blockquote>

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