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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5432912" data-attributes="member: 78116">Actually all of those creatures fit the expected base defense, which is level +12 + stat mod for NADs. Exactly what I argued previously. Also note that you are falling into the trap that I laid for you. You haven't considered what type of creature those are and what the primary stat is. Controllers like the Blizzard Dragon and Oblivion moss are most likely to be wisdom/charisma primary (or at least a high stat). While soldiers and brutes are more likely to be strength/constitution primary. Some exceptions exist of course, like the Cambrion (who is a soldier) that has ridiculous all around stats.Most of the problem with your comparison is you compare a small number of creatures, to a very high number of creatures of the same level that will be overloaded with brutes. If you take just controllers at level 12 (2 standard controllers and 2 elites in MM3) they have the exact same average will. This is because controllers tend to be wis/cha primary. Blizzard Dragons are also a bad example, because they are dragons they have strong stats across the board - unlike normal creatures.Claiming that elites have higher will is actually an incorrect claim, it's more that certain roles have a higher will. The young volcanic dragon (Level 10 elite brute) has level + 12 for his Will (exactly what you'd expect). The awakened Rot Grub swarm has 22 will as well (level 10 standard monster). When you control for role the difference you claim looks very unimpressive indeed. What boosted elites before (and solos) was the +2 to defenses they got. Without that they don't easily beat out standard creatures of the same role. The Oni in your MM2 example looks impressive, but if we control for role what do we find?Oni = 26 WillBone Golem = 22 WillGorechain Devil = 21 WillStandard Brutes (same level, same book)Centaur Ravager = 23 WillBladerager Troll = 23 WillAverage of both of those? The same, 23 will for both.So when we compare apples with apples, suddenly your point doesn't look too impressive. Because comparing apples to apples, what we find is that apples are more likely - but not always - to have the same primary stats. This naturally informs what defenses they have. So it isn't correct to claim elites have higher defenses, it's more correct to say that certain creature roles have higher defenses. If elites happen to fall into those roles more often in a book, they will end up with generally higher defenses. That's exactly what we see. Also note that these are very small sample sizes as well, making the swing more pronounced when you directly compare. If you compare a lot of creatures though and control for role vs. role, generally speaking elites are now no better off defensively than anything else within their own role. If they are it is only slight and caused by extreme outliers, such as Blizzard Dragons (and Dragons are good at everything stat wise, an exception).Edit: For the above brutes, I also added the MV Flesh Golem. It has 21 will.Oni = 26 WillBone Golem = 22 WillGorechain Devil = 21 WillFlesh Golem = 21 Will22.5 average.All apples from post MM2 maths on defenses. Compared with other apples from recent post defense maths changes (MM2+ supplements).Elemental Ooze (DMG2) = 22 WillCentaur Ravager = 23 WillBladerager Troll = 23 WillGirallon Marauder = 22 WillPale Bloodfiend = 23 WillSu Alpha = 23 WillEarth Archon = 21 WillSnake Swarm = 23 WillChaos Phage Swarm = 23 WillKua-Toa Spearfiend = 23 willAverage: 22.6Oh look, the standard monster brutes actually beat the elites for average Will on the same level. Fancy that when you're fairly comparing apples to apples. The actual difference winds up being pretty similar.</blockquote>

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