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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8600912" data-attributes="member: 93670">Coleville mentions problems with Tolkien's characters in the video that [USER=86653]@overgeeked[/USER] linked in 2558 & how Tolkien himself was bothered by some of them, but the quest to destroy the ring makes for an extremely poor character goal for reasons mentioned there & in another video so I want to get into that before answering the questions.  Destroy the ring is a dead end railroad of an escort quest that doesn't really work well for a character goal driving the plot(s) in a game  unless the players are dropping in on some NPC's who want to destroy the ring in pursuit of a shared goal.   Even if the players are only dropping in because they want to score brownie points with an NPC like the ranger described in the "engaging your players" video simply because that ranger cares & the PCs  want to make the ranger care about their problem. The ring has only a single goal of reuniting with the dark lord & corrupting the bearer so it can reunite.  Reuniting with the dark lord could make all sorts of interesting developments including everyone deciding to work for him taking over the world but that's a very different story than the one Tolkien wrote.  Corrupting the bearer is a short lived dead end of a problem  that goes [spoiler="here"][MEDIA=youtube]I-nfsi6B8d4[/MEDIA]The nails/dark phoenix problem described[/spoiler]There's a few rapid fire questions   that aren't all simple explanations.  It's been a long time since I read the various Tolkien books in the 80's  but the movie makes it easy to recap & get everyone on the same page (or at least see the page I'm using). I'm also not super versed in middle earth lore so examples might conflict with established lore simply because I don't know it that well.A single declaration is a bland mechanical thing that doesn't really explain much.  Explaining anything by how  a specific one of them from a novel is resolved would like trying to describe d&d combat with how a single attack roll is resolved.  Assuming they are expecting to meet Gandalf then he doesn't need to be declared into existence there because it has already been established that there is the expectation of finding him or that something else interesting will happen there when they arrive through past play events.  [spoiler="first hour of the movie recap  highlights"]At <a href="https://play.hbomax.com/feature/urn:hbo:feature:GXdu2ZAglVJuAuwEAADbA?utm_id=sa%7c71700000067030777%7c58700007674721711%7cp69454722262&gclid=CjwKCAjw3cSSBhBGEiwAVII0Z0ohr2tNpUI09lH0Gd60-uDB88-oB58gnXM-k_x1F9EqkAaQXRTeYxoCFNcQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds" target="_blank">about 34minutes in</a> Gandalf says "get out of the shire, make for the village of Bree.  I'll be waiting for you at The Inn of the Prancing Pony".  The expectation that Gandalf will be at the prancing pony waiting is already established.  The expectation is there but anything could happen as a result of external factors like Gandalf dealing with sauroman the mad.Around 45 minutes in the hobbits have a close encounter with a black rider & soon after they escape using the ferry with some forest stuff & a gate guard interaction before  they go on to find out that the innkeep has not seen Gandalf  for six months.  The party has some drinks & bilbo notices strider  with a semi-ominous description of him from the inkeep when asked.  Pippin stupidly reveals frodo is there  though  & in the process reveals himself to strider as well as the nazgul by accidentally slipping the ring on trying to stop pippin from blowing his cover at about 53 minutes in.  Soon after strider tells frodo that they can't wait for gandalf because "they" are coming.[/spoiler]Lets assume the social encounter stemming from the question starts  just after they get off the ferry & say that the hooded black rider/ferry encounter was last week possibly with some other encounters thrown in over the forest  stuff to make for an interesting d&d session rather than novel read. Here's how it might play out at the table if we tried to squeeze that few minutes of film/pages of story into gameplay.[spoiler="example of the Bree gate to Strider's room forcibly squeezed into gameplay"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "ok last week  you guys started down(up?) the river  & had some close calls in the forest but you can see the city of Bree ahead through the rain"[The characters already expect to find Gandalf or some other adventure there at the prancing pony so it doesn't need to be said]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Alice: I'm going to order pizza's, anyone mind? [no special meaning here]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">insert the back & forth at the gate playing out somehow with no objection when the players say they want to be as incognito as they can so no rolls are even needed [This could be played out in real time if the party makeup is one where it should be interesting, but at least  the quick scene in the movie doesn't really add anything or go anywhere interesting so it's actually better if the GM just declares it into existence as something uneventful that happened  It even gives time for Alice to order the pizza & everyone to settle on what they want]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">player: "we already know that Gandalf is waiting for us, lets go to the pony I</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "You get there no problem & GM describes the room</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Frodio: "I ask the innkeep where he's at"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "the innkeep hmms a bit & tells you that it's been six months since he's seen him.  Even though he left by horse before you left on foot somehow he's still not here.  You can obviously tell that something must have happened to him"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bob: "I declare gandalf walks in"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "um... he can't because obviously something happened, declaration refused"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bob: "My cousin used to work with the Maiar <s>and</s>"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "No bob he did not."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "You guys settle in with drinks & think about your options, frodo you notice a hooded man in an oddly dim corner of the tavern who sticks out"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Frodo: "can I ask a passing waitress or something about him?"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "Sure you flag one down & they give you kind of an ominous description saying the man is is one of them rangers & he doesn't know  more than the fact  people call him Strider"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players: "hmm... what should we do,  maybe go talk? does everyone think  that seems like a good idea?"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "You guys think about it a bit  while everyone's  doing their own thing, frodo you going to talk to him?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Frodo: "Yea I get up to go talk to him" [this has been pretty standard gameplay so far but is about to change]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "Frodo you are getting up your courage to go talk to him but remember how you guys  wanted to fly under the radar & even gave fake names?  That's when you hear Pippin over there bragging about knowing a baggins & how one is sitting right over there instead of calling you an underhill" [normally in fate there might be some exchange of fate points & such but I'm skipping that because this is trying to convert the scene from a book/movie to gameplay without changing the scene too much & the bob problem described <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/how-has-d-d-changed-over-the-decades.686433/post-8600187" target="_blank">here</a>in 2547.]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The players already established that they wanted to fly under the radar at the gate possibly even by the GM leading them into it with something like "I'm guessing you guys want to do what you can not to let on your mission & all?".  That allows the GM to backfill the false name to the inkeep without railroading even though it was  never specifically established because the GM is just using the <a href="https://fate-srd.com/odds-ends/demystifying-fate-fractal-and-nature-aspects" target="_blank">fractalized</a> nature of things.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Frodo: "oh god I stop him" [this might even be because the GM pointed out & asked if frodo was going to stop him]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "good news & bad news with the ring.  You met the cloaked figure when he dragged you off to his room but did so after tumbling to the floor & having the ring accidentally slip on your finger where it made you feel the connection to the dark lord's forces & them feel you" [Frodo would absolutely get a fate point for something for this but we haven't figured out a good way to use them with bob or the occasional newbie not up to speed on things]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">frodo: "ooo that's bad, what does that mean?"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM: "They know  you exist & are on the lookout for you, not much different but it should allow for cool stuff & strider obviously noticed you"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">frodo :"cool where is strider dragging me off to?"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Someone's phone chimes</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Alice: Dominos app says our pizza's are in the oven & estimated  xx minutes remaining I'm starved [yea all of that could happen that fast at the table,  it shouldn't be a surprise given not much happened in the tavern there].</li> </ul><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From Strider's room things kinda break down when it comes to mapping the story in the book/movie to gameplay, things would play out very different on the way to mount doom because it's a single largely railroaded quest stretched out over hundreds of pages that would need a ton of filler.  Part of why things would play out so different is because the fellowship characters exist exclusively to get the ring to where it can be destroyed so they can go back to being hobbits with as few detours as possible.  The fellowship of hobbits  don't really have any goals of their own to be interesting except the flaws of being hobbits who want to drink & eat.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gimli & Thorin might be better examples from here because they have a desire to recover/restore their ancestral home & the usual dwarf glory/honor of the clan stuff. Getting the ring to mount doom is a secondary concern. Frodo is troubled by it but there could be any number of "quests" aimed evolving  some aspect of those things. Aragorn might cause the inclusion of things like recovering food shipments bound for/from gondor & rohan or dealing with problems those have just pulling a few simple hypothetical "quests" or goals that could happen in their stories.</li> </ul></li> </ul>[/spoiler]In that example above the GM directed a lot of things & it might look heavy handed (especially since it's trying to convert a book/movie clip as is to gameplay) but keep in mind that access to that sometimes beyond <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish" target="_blank">wish</a> level power is also at the disposal of the players if it can be used responsibly for reasons other than a boring solution. Sometimes that means negotiating, sometimes it means just saying "no Bob" & moving on.The way I handle a journey is probably not all that different from any other table, it depends on how interesting the journey is needed to be & such just like any other table.  It might use some journey rules, it might be handwaved with some narration, things may or may not happen at the table during a journey depending on what seems most interesting at the time. As to the journey of a single quest written by Tolkien involving recovering & destroying the ring? The Hobbit: 304 pages The Fellowship of the Ring: 479 pages The Two Towers: 415 pages The Return of the King: 347 pages...   I'm not sure that is something that anyone can give a single answer to.</blockquote>

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