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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8608051" data-attributes="member: 16814">You made it just a few sentences before you fell down, again.&nbsp; You're continuing to use 'free form RPG' even though it's been challenged and shown how it's dismissive (too wide a bin), and, I assume, continuing to do so intentionally, which means you've moved into intentional dismissal.&nbsp; Okay.&nbsp; Given that there are quite number of different games that have quite a few different authority structures, the statement you've made is also factually wrong -- there is no most recent incarnation even if the 'free form' is overlooked.You're very much doubling down on championing your ignorance of these things.That seems to be your experience, and I'm sorry that is so.&nbsp; It's not mine.&nbsp; Here's the thing, though -- you're conceptualizing this only inside the framework of what you know -- that the GM has a puzzle and the player is short circuiting it with this stuff.&nbsp; If you use this kind of approach, though, the GM shouldn't be offering puzzles, but instead things that drive directly at who the PC is and makes them make choices there.&nbsp; This is the huge delta in play -- it's not GM puzzlebox play, it's legit following the play to see what happens.&nbsp; I alluded to this upthread when I noted the complaints about &quot;I win buttons&quot; in relation to getting an audience with the mayor that the GM had decided would take a week.&nbsp; That's not an I win, it's just not what the GM preconceived would happen.&nbsp; If that was the actual challenge, well, weird.&nbsp; We still have plenty of play, here, where now that the audience is achieved, you can get to play.&nbsp; There's nothing that solving a problem means that there's no more problems -- every GM has that game's equivalent of infinite dragons:&nbsp; you can always just go to the next problem.Pardon, but you haven't see anything at all with regards to the games I'm talking of.&nbsp; You don't have that experience.&nbsp; You've said so before.&nbsp; If, instead, you mean D&amp;D here, yeah, there's only so much you can do within a given authority structure.&nbsp; 4e changed it a bit and was blasted for it.It's not really existent, and the dismissal is largely in the continued claims that you have experience when everything you're saying points to not having that experience.&nbsp; And it's okay to not have experience, and even to not care about it.&nbsp; Making normative statements that display the total lack of that experience, though, should be pointed out.&nbsp; And your continued doubling down on this, instead of stopping to consider that maybe, just maybe, you might not have that experience, is also pretty dismissive along the &quot;my assumptions are clearly more correct that whatever you say, even though you have experience.&quot;What game would you care to learn about?&nbsp; PbtA games?&nbsp; FitD games?&nbsp; Burning Wheel?&nbsp; My Life with Master?&nbsp; Dogs in the Vineyard?&nbsp; All of these are different games, that do things different around some of the same concepts.&nbsp; All structure authority differently, and all play very differently from D&amp;D.&nbsp; And none of them should be remotely considered &quot;free form.&quot;&nbsp; Some of these are some of the tightest mechanically driven games I've seen (Blades in the Dark has some truly wonderfully mechanics that integrate and reverberate throughout play).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8608051, member: 16814"] You made it just a few sentences before you fell down, again. You're continuing to use 'free form RPG' even though it's been challenged and shown how it's dismissive (too wide a bin), and, I assume, continuing to do so intentionally, which means you've moved into intentional dismissal. Okay. Given that there are quite number of different games that have quite a few different authority structures, the statement you've made is also factually wrong -- there is no most recent incarnation even if the 'free form' is overlooked. You're very much doubling down on championing your ignorance of these things. That seems to be your experience, and I'm sorry that is so. It's not mine. Here's the thing, though -- you're conceptualizing this only inside the framework of what you know -- that the GM has a puzzle and the player is short circuiting it with this stuff. If you use this kind of approach, though, the GM shouldn't be offering puzzles, but instead things that drive directly at who the PC is and makes them make choices there. This is the huge delta in play -- it's not GM puzzlebox play, it's legit following the play to see what happens. I alluded to this upthread when I noted the complaints about "I win buttons" in relation to getting an audience with the mayor that the GM had decided would take a week. That's not an I win, it's just not what the GM preconceived would happen. If that was the actual challenge, well, weird. We still have plenty of play, here, where now that the audience is achieved, you can get to play. There's nothing that solving a problem means that there's no more problems -- every GM has that game's equivalent of infinite dragons: you can always just go to the next problem. Pardon, but you haven't see anything at all with regards to the games I'm talking of. You don't have that experience. You've said so before. If, instead, you mean D&D here, yeah, there's only so much you can do within a given authority structure. 4e changed it a bit and was blasted for it. It's not really existent, and the dismissal is largely in the continued claims that you have experience when everything you're saying points to not having that experience. And it's okay to not have experience, and even to not care about it. Making normative statements that display the total lack of that experience, though, should be pointed out. And your continued doubling down on this, instead of stopping to consider that maybe, just maybe, you might not have that experience, is also pretty dismissive along the "my assumptions are clearly more correct that whatever you say, even though you have experience." What game would you care to learn about? PbtA games? FitD games? Burning Wheel? My Life with Master? Dogs in the Vineyard? All of these are different games, that do things different around some of the same concepts. All structure authority differently, and all play very differently from D&D. And none of them should be remotely considered "free form." Some of these are some of the tightest mechanically driven games I've seen (Blades in the Dark has some truly wonderfully mechanics that integrate and reverberate throughout play). [/QUOTE]

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