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<blockquote data-quote="Nail" data-source="post: 4673169" data-attributes="member: 224">Good thread, DrSpunj!Agreed.&nbsp; ...and that's not casting aspersions on my DM. (I really enjoy his game!) Setting up &quot;dynamic&quot; combats are hard, methinks, and I've seen others have a hard time of it too.Part of the problem is that the monsters almost always have the advantage.&nbsp; Although that certainly toughens the fight - making those XPs harder to earn - it doesn't make the fight &quot;more dynamic&quot;.&nbsp; It just makes it tougher, which may or may not be more &quot;fun&quot;.&nbsp; Fun and tough are different things!&nbsp; If making the terrain &quot;one of the monsters&quot; is just another way to play &quot;screw the PCs&quot;, it doesn't make the terrain much different than it was in 3.xe.&nbsp; I think what 4e is pointing to - what the &quot;dynamic battlefield&quot; is all about - is that the terrain takes part in the combat, but doesn't necessarily take sides.&nbsp; If the PCs are clever they can use the terrain to their advantage......and even if they don't, the terrain adds variety to what choices the PCs have.Using DrSpunj's last game as an example:&nbsp; We (the PCs) were hiking across the desert, in amongst sandy bluffs and dunes.&nbsp; Suddenly we get ambushed, with enemies burrowing out of the ground right next to us, as well as poping up on the sandstone cliffs above us (and shooting blinding-spit or On-going poison spikes).&nbsp; Yoowch!&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Within the first round the PCs are pinned and surrounded.&nbsp; Little tactical movement was open to us.&nbsp; The fact that there were cliffs to climb, multiple gullies to circle around, and ranged attackers meant little.&nbsp; We had to just close ranks, duke it out with the melee enemies pressing in on us, and hope that we'd last long enough to get to the artillery types.&nbsp; Dangerous?&nbsp; Yes! But not &quot;dynamic&quot;.So: How could the terrain have been more tactically interesting and exciting?<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">The first thing might be monster placement.&nbsp; The monsters were on us immediately, and from all directions, meaning there was little point or opportunity to take advantage of all of the cool terrain. Having them spend time moving, and coming in more widely spaced waves would allow the PCs time to move themselves.</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">The second thing might be putting obvious &quot;PC changable&quot; terrain elements.&nbsp; Climbing the cliffs was difficult because they were so loose...might it be possible to cause them to collapse instead, bringing the artillery down to us?&nbsp; PCs often need clear hints that this sort of stuff would work.</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">The third thing might be putting a reachable non-melee goal into the fight.&nbsp; The monsters that attacked us burrowed out of the ground....maybe their lair entrance is obvious and nearby, with some dry underbrush around it, just begging to be lit?&nbsp; Or maybe there is a stone mesa nearby to retreat to?&nbsp; Or perhaps one of the controller beasts has a jeweled collar on, that if removed quells all of the beasts?&nbsp; Etc.</li>
</ul>Bottom Line: Maybe &quot;dynamic 4e terrain&quot; is different than &quot;monsters have even more advantages than they did before&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nail, post: 4673169, member: 224"] Good thread, [b]DrSpunj![/b]Agreed. ...and that's not casting aspersions on my DM. [I] [size=2](I really enjoy his game!) [/size][/I]Setting up "dynamic" combats are hard, methinks, and I've seen others have a hard time of it too. Part of the problem is that [B]the monsters almost always have the advantage[/B]. Although that certainly toughens the fight - making those XPs harder to earn - it doesn't make the fight "more dynamic". It just makes it tougher, which may or may not be more "fun". Fun and tough are different things! If making the terrain "one of the monsters" is just another way to play "screw the PCs", it doesn't make the terrain much different than it was in 3.xe. I think what 4e is pointing to - what the "dynamic battlefield" is all about - is that the terrain takes part in the combat, [i][U]but doesn't necessarily take sides[/U][/i]. If the PCs are clever they can use the terrain to their advantage......and even if they don't, the terrain adds variety to what choices the PCs have. Using [B]DrSpunj[/B]'s last game as an example: We (the PCs) were hiking across the desert, in amongst sandy bluffs and dunes. Suddenly we get ambushed, with enemies burrowing out of the ground right next to us, as well as poping up on the sandstone cliffs above us (and shooting blinding-spit or On-going poison spikes). Yoowch! :) Within the first round the PCs are pinned and surrounded. Little tactical movement was open to us. The fact that there were cliffs to climb, multiple gullies to circle around, and ranged attackers meant little. We had to just close ranks, duke it out with the melee enemies pressing in on us, and hope that we'd last long enough to get to the artillery types. Dangerous? Yes! But not "dynamic". So: [COLOR="Yellow"]How could the terrain have been more tactically interesting and exciting?[/COLOR] [list][*]The first thing might be monster placement. The monsters were on us immediately, and from all directions, meaning there was little point or opportunity to take advantage of all of the cool terrain. Having them spend time moving, and coming in more widely spaced waves would allow the PCs time to move themselves.[/list] [list][*]The second thing might be putting obvious "PC changable" terrain elements. Climbing the cliffs was difficult because they were so loose...might it be possible to cause them to collapse instead, bringing the artillery down to us? PCs often need clear hints that this sort of stuff would work.[/list] [list][*]The third thing might be putting a reachable non-melee goal into the fight. The monsters that attacked us burrowed out of the ground....maybe their lair entrance is obvious and nearby, with some dry underbrush around it, just begging to be lit? Or maybe there is a stone mesa nearby to retreat to? Or perhaps one of the controller beasts has a jeweled collar on, that if removed quells all of the beasts? Etc. [/list] Bottom Line: Maybe "[I][COLOR="Cyan"][B]dynamic 4e terrain[/B][/COLOR][/I]" is different than "[I][COLOR="Red"][B]monsters have even more advantages than they did before[/B][/COLOR][/I]". [/QUOTE]

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