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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Prestidigitalis" data-source="post: 4622029" data-attributes="member: 74496">With 3 NADs but only 2 ability score bumps, is it really possible to maintain 3 good NADs at high levels?  If it is possible, is it worth the cost?  If not possible, is it better to have 2 good NADs and 1 bad one, or all 3 mediocre?The best case I can think of is a Human Paladin with 16-14-14-13-10-8 ability scores, with the human stat bump in one of the 14s, giving 16-16-14-etc., for example Str 16 Dex 14 Cha 16.   At Level 1, this gives defense of FD: 15  RD: 14  WD: 15.Assume the Paladin takes the 3 Paragon tier NAD feats (Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes) and pushes one ability score every bump and splits the other bumps evenly between the other two.  Assume the Demigod Epic Destiny.  All that combined gives the following at level 30:Str:    26Dex:   20Cha:   20    (or swap Str and Cha)FD:   10 base + 15 (levels) + 8 (Str)   + 2 (feat) + 6 (cloak) = 41RD:   10 base + 15 (levels) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (feat) + 6 (cloak) = 38WD:  10 base + 15 (levels) + 5 (Cha) + 2 (feat) + 6 (cloak) = 38An Ancient Red Dragon (Level 30) is supposed to be a pretty easy encounter for a party full of such characters, but all 3 of the dragon's NAD attacks would have a +35 bonus and a very good chance of hitting, even if they were against FD, which they aren't.Should we look at Orcus out of the corner of our eyes as we flee?  His two NAD attacks are both against FD, at +33 and +38 respectively.  But somehow, the idea that Orcus will *only* reduce our fearless Paladin to 0 hit points 65% of the time is not very reassuring.  And that's for a Paladin deliberately built for NADs, at the cost of a low primary attack score.Those are the two archetypal high-Epic-level challenges, and neither one gives me much confidence that there is a way to make NADs matter much at high levels.What is the secret?  Is it that Epic-level parties have all sorts of non-Defense ways to avoid taking damage or effects?  Is it that situational bonuses tip the scales -- bonuses that I'm not taking into account?  Is it that the right approach is *not* to try to balance the NADs, but to push 2 of them to high levels and ignore the third?  Or is it that no one actually tries to take on Orcus, or maybe that no one is really playing at high Epic levels?</blockquote>

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