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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 4778531" data-attributes="member: 18280">As has been pointed out, there is a real difference between acknowledging the (vastly overstated) number of explanations, and agreeing that even one of those explanations is satisfactory.  Especially given that most of those explanations are restatements of a few very basic explanations, for which the reasons that they are not satisfactory (to those who do not find them so) have been given repeatedly.If you do not care that some folks don't find those explanations satisfactory, then no problem.  Otherwise, simply repeating the same is unlikely to gain converts....a truism on both sides of the argument!  One can try to understand the opposition's point, then either answer the argument or accept it at face value. There have been some nice answers to the argument of both sides in this thread, IMHO.  While I haven't found the answers even remotely satisfactory, I do feel like I better understand why others view 4e's martial powers as "non-magical".  And, sometimes, that is the best one can hope for.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I would tend to agree for a whole host of arguments along this line in various threads, but I think that the topic is a little more complex in this case.One of the few 2e books I didn't manage to own!  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />I think that argument is rather flimsy when taken at face value.  It assumes that the word "martial" means, in 4e, what it means in common parlance.  In fact, upthread, one of the big arguments against calling martial powers magical is that magical in 4e doesn't mean the same thing as it does in common parlance.  If that is so, then there is no reason to assume that martial means the same in 4e as in common parlance.If that is not so, then through the common parlance definitions, several of these powers are magical.Either way, this argument fails.RC</blockquote>

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