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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 4778712" data-attributes="member: 48965"> Again, all I can say is, IMO, you are stretching in claiming a sidebar story less than a few paragraphs long in the DMG is a basis in the rulebooks for narrative control explaining the use of certain powers. iIs his son even using a power in the example? I mean in all honesty you can claim whatever you want is the reason something happens, what you can't say is that something is logically explained away by anything you claim is the reason for it (which is what many proponents of the narrative control excuse are saying)... there have already been a few of these instances brought up (the archers who come running out of cover to get slaughtered in melee... everytime the power is used on them).  That is what constructing an argument is... isn't it?    What other reasons are given in the rules?  Or you could just accept that, as stated in the corebook martial exploits aren't traditional magic... which implies they are non-traditional magic. I mean why else would they state it in such a way.  I disagree, even heavy simulationist game systems can have exception based rules... it's that they try to base their exceptions on simulating something... thus again I believe the problem is more about effect-based game systems.  Totally agree it wassn't designed around narrative control... thus the part where I said you agreed with me. And claiming the powers are a non-traditional form of magic is also a possible way to use the powers (honestly it's a game you can use them any way you want). What the argument is about, from my perspective, is which definition provides the most logical, comprehensive and cohesive way of approaching the powers.  And for the record it isn't powers being exception-based that inand of itself creates a dissonance problem for many... it's the fact that they are effect-based.  PHB 1 pg.55... Basic attacks, racial powers, and epic destiny powers have no power source. This was my original argument, how it got twisted into whether they were powers or not was probably my fault but the fact remains that they have no power source. You can use a power with a power source as a basic attack but a basic attack does not have a power source.</blockquote>

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