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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 4778818" data-attributes="member: 48965">Uhm, I didn't consider that a necessary component of an argument but ok, whatever.&nbsp;&nbsp;In what, non-traditional magic, maneuvers, footwork...exactly what is this training in?&nbsp;&nbsp;Again...occam's razor.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Yet in the end, it is the effect-based design (regardles of what led to effect-based design) that causes the problem.&nbsp;&nbsp;No there are not... there are powers with power sources that can be substituted or used as a basic attack. &nbsp;&nbsp;So it doesn't take training to wield a weapon effectively? Again, what type of training are we speaking of here? I guess it also doesn't take training for the different monsters and NPC's in the MM to pull off their powers... because they don't have power sources either. IMO the more you examine this the more it seems pretty flimsy reasoning.&nbsp;&nbsp;Hey I respect your opinion, though I don't believe you've argued the narrative control (a sidebar story, without a power and perhaps not even playing D&amp;D 4e) as support for that style of play in anything close to a convincing manner... especially since while&nbsp; it may not be contradicted by the rules (in the same manner using foam weapons for combat isn't) this isn't the same as supporting something. &nbsp;As far as alternate magic... It says it in the description it's not traditional magic...and that they allow people to do things ordinary beings can't...yet martial powers apparently work different from what we consider any other ability that would be classified as martial such as the basic attack, or a Human Bandit's Dazing Strike... or how about an Ogre Warhulk's Flail Hurricane. None of these are classified under the Martial power source. Though I would think an ability like Dazing Strike would take some training to do since I believe it's an encounter or recharge power.&nbsp;So now my question is what seperates someone whose using a power that is based in martial abilities as opposed to someone who uses the martial power source?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 4778818, member: 48965"] Uhm, I didn't consider that a necessary component of an argument but ok, whatever. In what, non-traditional magic, maneuvers, footwork...exactly what is this training in? Again...occam's razor. Yet in the end, it is the effect-based design (regardles of what led to effect-based design) that causes the problem. No there are not... there are powers with power sources that can be substituted or used as a basic attack. So it doesn't take training to wield a weapon effectively? Again, what type of training are we speaking of here? I guess it also doesn't take training for the different monsters and NPC's in the MM to pull off their powers... because they don't have power sources either. IMO the more you examine this the more it seems pretty flimsy reasoning. Hey I respect your opinion, though I don't believe you've argued the narrative control (a sidebar story, without a power and perhaps not even playing D&D 4e) as support for that style of play in anything close to a convincing manner... especially since while it may not be contradicted by the rules (in the same manner using foam weapons for combat isn't) this isn't the same as supporting something. As far as alternate magic... It says it in the description it's not traditional magic...and that they allow people to do things ordinary beings can't...yet martial powers apparently work different from what we consider any other ability that would be classified as martial such as the basic attack, or a Human Bandit's Dazing Strike... or how about an Ogre Warhulk's Flail Hurricane. None of these are classified under the Martial power source. Though I would think an ability like Dazing Strike would take some training to do since I believe it's an encounter or recharge power. So now my question is what seperates someone whose using a power that is based in martial abilities as opposed to someone who uses the martial power source? [/QUOTE]

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