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Message: <blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8354265" data-attributes="member: 86653">Finicky is in the eyes of the beholder. Like the Becoming Lost section of the DMG. Like how hiding works in 5E. Like how foraging works. The difference is 2E put many of those subsystems in the proficiencies section in the PHB and expanded on them in the DMG. 5E mentions them in the PHB but mostly hides the finicky subsystems in the DMG. They're still there.Different levels of ability doing a thing based on investment of resources. Same, same.Uh...except they just standardized the BAB. Everyone has the same basic attack bonus, 1/2 level.Right. In 4E everyone got to use their relevant stat as a mod to attack and damage for their assumed attacks. They don't in 5E.Interesting selective quotation. Note the first word in your quoted sentence. "Alternately"...as in optionally. As in that's not the default assumption. The bit you didn't quote is where is says you roll your hit dice every time you gain a level. And alternately, optionally, you can take the average. It's core in the same way that flanking, feats, and multiclassing are. They're presented in the core books, but they're optional rules.What a waste of a spell slot.LOL. Pot meet kettle.1st-level party. Assuming 18 +4 in relevant stats. Fighter: greatsword or maul for 2d6+4, averages 11 hp per. Cleric: sacred flame or toll the dead for 1d8/1d12, averages 4.5/6.5 hp per. Wizard: fire bolt for 1d10, averages 5.5 hp per. Rogue: sneak attack on any 1d6 finesse or ranged weapon for 2d6+4, averages 11 hp per. Adding that up...11+4.5/6.5+5.5+11=32 lower average or 34 higher average. And the rogue could use a 1d8 or 1d10 ranged weapon to bump that up to 1-2 points, but then reloading for the crossbow, etc. So in four average hits the classic D&D party deals between 32-36 damage. The actual range is 14-56 damage from four hits.Now, let's compare that to CR1 creatures. Let's see. Half-ogre 30 hp. So four average hits. Duergar 26 hp. Dryad 22 hp. Copper dragon wyrmling 22 hp. Bronze dragon wyrmling (CR2) 32 hp. Brass dragon wyrmling 16 hp. White dragon wyrmling (CR2) 32 hp. Green dragon wyrmling (CR2) 38 hp...so five average hits. Black dragon wyrmling (CR2) 33 hp. Spined devil (CR2) 22 hp. Imp 10 hp. Quasit 7 hp. Bugbear 27 hp. Orc (CR1/2) 15 hp. Two average hits. Hmm. Ghast (CR2) 36 hp. Ghoul 22 hp. Gith monk (CR2) 38 hp. Gnoll (CR1/2) 22 hp. 2-3 average hits. Hmm. Goblin (CR1/4) 7 hp. One average hit. Hmm. Goblin boss 21 hp. Grick (CR2) 27 hp. Harpy 38 hp. So a 1st-level party of four vs one CR1 creature (the assumed default of 5E), the fight ends once the group lands four average hits. If you use two CR1/2 creatures instead...the fight ends once the group lands...four average hits. If you use four CR1/4 creatures instead...the fight ends...wait for it...once the group lands...four average hits. Spooky. It's almost like there's math involved.And note none of this involves expending resources. This is all at-wills/cantrips and basically infinite use weapon attacks.Now let's compare the above to the same from 4E. 1st-level party. Assuming 18 +4 in relevant stats. Fighter: heavy flail or maul for 2d6+4, averages 11 hp per. Cleric: lance of faith for 1d8+4, averages 8.5 per. Wizard: magic missile for 2d4+4, averages 9. Rogue: sneak attack on any 1d6 weapon for 3d6+4, averages 14.5. Adding that up...11+8.5+9+14.5=43. And that ignores all the riders along with the rogue using a more damaging weapon. So in four average hits the classic D&D party deals 43 damage. The actual range is 24-62 damage from four hits. I don't need to list various creatures from 4E because the devs were nice enough to give us the math. The average is 8+Con+(levelx8). So assuming a 16 Con, a 1st-level standard monster averages 32 hp. (Weird. That's almost exactly what a CR1 5E monster has. Hmm.) So the average party of four can down one standard monster in 3-4 hits. But...in 4E the encounter design was balanced around 1 standard monster per 1 PC. So our four heroes would face off against four standard monsters (or their equivalents, i.e. 1 elite for 2 standard, 1 solo for 4 standard, 4 minions for 1 standard, and/or traps, skill challenges, etc). So if it will take four average hits to down one standard monster and the party is facing four standard monsters...it will take about 16 hits to end the fight. Roughly four times as long as a 5E fight. Give or take. And note none of that involves even using encounter powers, the assumed resources you're meant to spend. On average they simply do double damage vs at-wills...2[W] instead of 1[W] or 2d10 instead of 1d10. So using encounter powers would halve the number of hits. So the four encounter hits would be 2 each, and the at-wills would be 1 each. So you're talking about 12 average hits including encounter powers.</blockquote>

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