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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8363957" data-attributes="member: 82106">But you are comparing Apples to Oranges, because in no case is the 5e wizard going to still face the same DC 15 at level 10 or 20 that he faced at level 1, just not going to happen. That is because there are other vastly more proficient PCs around for that check who will just take it and make it trivial. This won't happen in 4e (well, it MAY, but then said PCs had to actually invest build resources).It is also not a good comparison in another way. There are TONS of ways in which 4e PCs can and often do get bonuses to skill checks due to things they acquire (IE feats, PP, ED, items, ASI, etc.). ANY character can easily improve whichever skills they want, to any reasonable degree, and probably will make some limited improvements in many of them.So, level 30 4e PCs will run into some situations where they have 'fallen off the track' on a few things, it happens. OTOH many things they will be roughly as likely to succeed at the 30th level equivalents of as they were long ago at level 1, and some they will be vastly better at. This is of course ignoring the whole thematic dimension of this, they are now climbing the Ice Walls of Hell, not some amateur rock climb 3 miles from home. And that last point is one that I think goes badly for 5e, because it actively discourages that sort of challenge scaling. It works against &quot;the world is a wondrous place&quot; by actually punishing you for going to the wondrous and dangerous parts. 4e punishes you a BIT, but much less, and makes your comrades better than they were before to make up for it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8363957, member: 82106"] But you are comparing Apples to Oranges, because in no case is the 5e wizard going to still face the same DC 15 at level 10 or 20 that he faced at level 1, just not going to happen. That is because there are other vastly more proficient PCs around for that check who will just take it and make it trivial. This won't happen in 4e (well, it MAY, but then said PCs had to actually invest build resources). It is also not a good comparison in another way. There are TONS of ways in which 4e PCs can and often do get bonuses to skill checks due to things they acquire (IE feats, PP, ED, items, ASI, etc.). ANY character can easily improve whichever skills they want, to any reasonable degree, and probably will make some limited improvements in many of them. So, level 30 4e PCs will run into some situations where they have 'fallen off the track' on a few things, it happens. OTOH many things they will be roughly as likely to succeed at the 30th level equivalents of as they were long ago at level 1, and some they will be vastly better at. This is of course ignoring the whole thematic dimension of this, they are now climbing the Ice Walls of Hell, not some amateur rock climb 3 miles from home. And that last point is one that I think goes badly for 5e, because it actively discourages that sort of challenge scaling. It works against "the world is a wondrous place" by actually punishing you for going to the wondrous and dangerous parts. 4e punishes you a BIT, but much less, and makes your comrades better than they were before to make up for it. [/QUOTE]

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