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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8363966" data-attributes="member: 16814">Okay, I play 5e, and that happens in my games.&nbsp; I'm not sure why this is stated with such authority.Are you spending those on your untrained skills, though?&nbsp; You can, but are you?&nbsp; There are ways to improve skill in 5e as well.&nbsp; We're talking about those skills you aren't beefing up.&nbsp; And, even if you do spend the effort for the bonuses, unless they're really big from outside sources (like items or boons), you're just keeping up with the hard DC treadmill.&nbsp; Looking at [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]'s characters, except for the notably large bonuses in the 40's, the next highest tier in the mid 30's gives a worse chance at success at level 30 hard tasks than a 5e character with expertise and max stat has very hard tasks (+35 needs a 7 for 4e, +17 needs an 8 for very hard).&nbsp; And that 5e character has no outside help from items or boons which the 4e character needs to get that bonus!Again, outside of really large bonuses to 4e characters, they're actually not moving much at all.&nbsp; The bottom of the 4e DC treadmill keeps up with +1/2 levels, but the top is on a different track and keeps up with ASIs and with most bonuses.&nbsp; If you're great at something, you stay in about the same place with hard tasks but start crushing easy and medium tasks.&nbsp; In 5e, you actually get better at doing hard stuff, and always crush the easy stuff.&nbsp; If you're mediocre at stuff in 4e, easy stuff gets easier, a bit, but hard stuff gets harder.&nbsp; In 5e, you get a bit better at all of it.&nbsp; If you suck as something in 4e, good news, you won't get worse at the easy stuff, but the medium stuff gets real hard and the hard stuff gets impossible.&nbsp; In 5e, you stay in the same place.I do not see how this state of affairs translates into &quot;4e characters grow in ability and 5e characters don't!&quot;&nbsp; The math is right there.Again, this isn't something I've actually noticed.&nbsp; There are official adventures where you go to literal hell at level 5.&nbsp; The new one has your traipsing around the feywild dealing with exotic fey.&nbsp; There's one where you're in a frozen hellscape, but not literal hell.&nbsp; And that's just the published stuff.&nbsp; My games have been some rather wild places, and my world are plenty wonderous.&nbsp; This accusation feels extremely unfounded.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8363966, member: 16814"] Okay, I play 5e, and that happens in my games. I'm not sure why this is stated with such authority. Are you spending those on your untrained skills, though? You can, but are you? There are ways to improve skill in 5e as well. We're talking about those skills you aren't beefing up. And, even if you do spend the effort for the bonuses, unless they're really big from outside sources (like items or boons), you're just keeping up with the hard DC treadmill. Looking at [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]'s characters, except for the notably large bonuses in the 40's, the next highest tier in the mid 30's gives a worse chance at success at level 30 hard tasks than a 5e character with expertise and max stat has very hard tasks (+35 needs a 7 for 4e, +17 needs an 8 for very hard). And that 5e character has no outside help from items or boons which the 4e character needs to get that bonus! Again, outside of really large bonuses to 4e characters, they're actually not moving much at all. The bottom of the 4e DC treadmill keeps up with +1/2 levels, but the top is on a different track and keeps up with ASIs and with most bonuses. If you're great at something, you stay in about the same place with hard tasks but start crushing easy and medium tasks. In 5e, you actually get better at doing hard stuff, and always crush the easy stuff. If you're mediocre at stuff in 4e, easy stuff gets easier, a bit, but hard stuff gets harder. In 5e, you get a bit better at all of it. If you suck as something in 4e, good news, you won't get worse at the easy stuff, but the medium stuff gets real hard and the hard stuff gets impossible. In 5e, you stay in the same place. I do not see how this state of affairs translates into "4e characters grow in ability and 5e characters don't!" The math is right there. Again, this isn't something I've actually noticed. There are official adventures where you go to literal hell at level 5. The new one has your traipsing around the feywild dealing with exotic fey. There's one where you're in a frozen hellscape, but not literal hell. And that's just the published stuff. My games have been some rather wild places, and my world are plenty wonderous. This accusation feels extremely unfounded. [/QUOTE]

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