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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8363994" data-attributes="member: 16814">The example is not part of a skill challenge?&nbsp; Not sure, can't quite fully parse that first sentence.&nbsp; Okay, sure, we can slide this some more.&nbsp; There's a skill challenge for a demigod where they have to make a check that involves intimidating a normal human mayor with nothing special.&nbsp; I mean, that's kind of odd for a skill challenge for a demigod, but okay.&nbsp; 4e has guidance that a clever plan or action can have an automatic success if it makes sense.&nbsp; A normal mortal mayor certainly seems like they'd be cowed even by a tongue-tied demigod that can easily level the town with no risk.&nbsp; If this odd configuration in a skill challenge came up for a demigod character in a 4e game I was running, I'd have to step back, evaluate my choices, and say, &quot;Sure, that works, mark a success.&quot;Much like I'd do for 5e.&nbsp; Sure, I'm aware of that.&nbsp; I'm a big proponent of FitD and PbtA games.&nbsp; Burning Wheel Duel of Wits is probably another good example of this.&nbsp; I can talk to why this is a good thing for those games but not a good thing for D&amp;D games as well -- it's about authority and who has it.&nbsp; If the D&amp;D GM's NPC can control your character using skills and bonuses the GM is selecting and choosing to deploy that way, then the players are losing the one area of authority they have in the game and this is very discouraging.&nbsp; In these other games, it's the player staking these outcomes as part of their action, so they know what they're getting into and they initiate it.&nbsp; Pretty simple example of how agency is distributed can alter how a mechanic is viewed.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8363994, member: 16814"] The example is not part of a skill challenge? Not sure, can't quite fully parse that first sentence. Okay, sure, we can slide this some more. There's a skill challenge for a demigod where they have to make a check that involves intimidating a normal human mayor with nothing special. I mean, that's kind of odd for a skill challenge for a demigod, but okay. 4e has guidance that a clever plan or action can have an automatic success if it makes sense. A normal mortal mayor certainly seems like they'd be cowed even by a tongue-tied demigod that can easily level the town with no risk. If this odd configuration in a skill challenge came up for a demigod character in a 4e game I was running, I'd have to step back, evaluate my choices, and say, "Sure, that works, mark a success." Much like I'd do for 5e. Sure, I'm aware of that. I'm a big proponent of FitD and PbtA games. Burning Wheel Duel of Wits is probably another good example of this. I can talk to why this is a good thing for those games but not a good thing for D&D games as well -- it's about authority and who has it. If the D&D GM's NPC can control your character using skills and bonuses the GM is selecting and choosing to deploy that way, then the players are losing the one area of authority they have in the game and this is very discouraging. In these other games, it's the player staking these outcomes as part of their action, so they know what they're getting into and they initiate it. Pretty simple example of how agency is distributed can alter how a mechanic is viewed. [/QUOTE]

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