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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8364018" data-attributes="member: 87792">Indeed. If it was realistic the bottom guy would get better faster than the top guy. Meanwhile in 5e (and in 3.X for that matter) the bottom guy simply doesn't get any better at all. It's still the same pasty wizard without a tan who doesn't know the tarpaulin of a tent from the groundsheet.4e isn't The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. You don't miraculously see all the bandits walking around in glass armour because you've levelled up too much. Instead what you have is DCs increasing by what the characters are generally trying to do - the level in the DC is the adventure level.And if Queen of the Demonweb Pits is a level 10-14 adventure then a level 10 wizard has as much or more trouble foraging for food in the Demonweb Pits as a level 1 wizard does in the area around the Keep on the Borderlands because the area is a higher level in the Demonweb Pits.On the other hand which are you saying is the case in 5e because, it being more of a half-assed game, doesn't actually have a defined answer:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Demonweb Pits are exactly as hard to forage food in as the area round the Keep on the Borderlands.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Demonweb Pits are actually harder to forage food in than the area round the Keep on the Borderlands so the actual chance of success for the 5e character is lower. And you, as a DM, have to do more work because 5e isn't actually empowering.</li> </ul>So which is it? Does the 5e character get actively worse at things that are relevant because they don't level up, or is there no more difficulty in the Demonweb Pits than round the Keep o the Borderlands.But what is that DC 8 and DC 18?If we look at the Athletics rules it's DC 5 to climb a ladder and DC 10 to climb a rope. So DC 8 is probably a knotted rope. Meanwhile it's DC 15 to climb a cave wall and DC 20 to climb a brick wall DC 18 is possibly a wall with a lightning rod for a +2. So the level 20 wizard can climb a brick wall with a lightning conductor as easily as the level 1 wizard can climb a rope. I guess they improved!Or let's say jumping. With a running start you can jump a number of squares equal to your athletics check/5 (unrounded). So a DC8 jump check clears an 8 foot pit. A DC 18 athletics check clears more than twice as far. I guess they improved!Or let's say swimming. DC 10 is needed to swim in calm water. With a +2 circumstance bonus that's DC 8. So DC8 is swimming in calm water with water wings. Meanwhile DC 20 is the difficulty to swim in a storm. +2 circumstance in this case is a plank of wreckage to help them float.So either (a) there is no improvement between someone who can swim in a calm pond with water wings and someone who can swim in a storm with the wreckage of a ship or (b) there is actual meaningful improvement and it's just expected the PCs will do harder things.Do you really think that it's easy to swim in a flat calm with water wings as it is a storm with a piece of wooden wreckage to support you? Because that is literally what you are claiming when you say there isn't improvement.This is only true on the same scale where most 5e characters get steadily more incompetent until they reach Keystone Cops levels outside their areas of expertise. A Gelatinous Cube is CR2 and DC 12 save to avoid its engulf. A Shambling Mound is CR 5 and DC 14 to avoid its engulf. A Purple Worm is CR 15 and DC 19 to avoid being swallowed. (These were just the first three swallowing/engulfing monsters I could think of). But not only do most characters' non-proficient saves not fully scale with level, they don't scale at all. The difficulties characters are expected to face level up as they do. The difference is 4e characters' basic competence almost matches this. 5e doesn't and they are stuck not scaling other than in their areas of expertise and in hp.</blockquote>

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