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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8364048" data-attributes="member: 16814">There's an assumption at play here that it's the number beside the skill that makes the difference.  Most of the examples given (mine included) just look like no check needed to me.  When we look at things that actually have stakes in the games, the maths plays out the same as far as chance of success goes.  Both cases are going to be pitching a campsite in a dangerous place, because that's the backdrop for high level stuff!  So, making camp in hell, 20th level, not a lot of pressure but it's a dangerous place.  Easy task.  Both my 5e character and your 4e character have the same chance of success as they did at 1st pitching camp in Placid Clearing.So, your argument is that 20th level characters in 4e are doing 1st level adventures, or... what?  Over the course of a 4e adventure, you'll level, what, once maybe twice.  So your check goes up by at most 1 during that adventure.  I'm not following this argument.  The idea in both 4e and 5e is that you go up against tougher and tougher guys, not that you're often circling back to the low level guys for some easy kicks.You seem to have made the assumption that the foraging DC for Demonweb pits is objectively locked in the same place for 4e but is variable depending on what the GM thinks the difficulty is in 5e.  But, it's the same for 4e -- the difficulty for foraging around the Demonweb pits is up to the GM -- it's either easy, medium, or hard.  For 5e, it's either easy, medium, or hard (according to the recommended guidance).  And we're back at my argument.Why are walls with lightning rods harder to climb?  I mean, total aside, not the point, but... huh?Do either of these make any sense, though?  I mean, I can hang out with wall climbers, and I can go on climbs where I get help, but unless I actually put on muscle and practice, I will not get better at these things.  And no amount of casual watching of track and field is going to improve your jumping distance.  I mean, the 4e character can never, ever have jumped a single thing in any adventure, but they can jump further?  You're arguing a nonsensical point to justify increasing numbers beside the skill on the character sheet.But, yes, you have a point.  On the physical skills where 4e locked in a DC like 3e did, the treadmill makes you "improve."And this goes directly to my earlier point.  That 4e character has no practice avoiding being swallowed, but they get better at avoiding it.  This is because 4e models competence one way -- the amorphous, no explanation, you just get better because the math needs you to way.  This is because of the idea you need to get better but the math of the system needs your actual ability to succeed to remain largely static.  5e models competence a different way -- things still largely the same as far as challenge goes, but you can get better at them.  You point out swallowing whole monsters in 5e.  In 4e, these also exist, but they're tied to level, so their threat is largely the same no matter when you encounter one.  A swallowing monster at level 3 is about as dangerous to you as a swallowing monster at level 23.  5e, though, takes a different approach.  Monsters are dangerous based on the monster, not your level.  A purple worm is very dangerous -- it's hard to avoid being swallowed by one because it's huge and swallows things all the time.  It's practiced at swallowing thing.  So, you have a hard task to avoid it.  This isn't tied to level, it's tied to the worm -- the worm is hard no matter when you encounter it.  So, a character that puts build choices into improving that save still faces a hard task to avoid being swallowed -- it's still hard! -- but they're skilled enough to deal with it.  Much like a 4e character with lots of build choices in a skill finds hard tasks not as hard as others.  But, if you haven't put skill into it, it's still the same hard task as it is for the other character, you just haven't put anything towards mitigating that.  Maybe you should stay away.These are different models of competence.  And that's a very valid point -- you can prefer one to the other.  However, the impact of these systems is that they largely end up in the same place -- 4e actually punishes you more than 5e does.  By the by, I noticed the goalpost shift from skills to saves, which these two systems use entirely differently.</blockquote>

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