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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8364428" data-attributes="member: 16814">Except the math is pretty much the same.  You keep bring up these "fixed DCs" but it's not the point you imagine it is.  A Gelatinous Cube is a CR 2 threat.  If you face it as a 20th level character, it's still not much of a threat even if you can fail the saving throw.  So, the cube engulfs you, does some damage, of which you have lots of hp, and then, next turn, it's dead.  Probably before you get to go.  If it isn't, you take a bit more damage, and then you kill it.  Or teleport out.  Or whatever it is you'd do at 20th level.  The calculus of 5e moved from "this can never, ever do anything at all to you, ever" to "this might be able to hurt you a touch, but, in the scheme of things, not much."Whereas a Purple Worm is a higher level threat.  It's a danger even in 4e to level appropriate parties, just like it is in 5e.  And the math is worst for level appropriate characters in 4e than it is in 5e!You say 5e left competence on the floor, but it didn't -- it's still there in the system, just not in the same treadmill form that didn't actually increase competence against leveled threats in 4e.  4e keeps you at the same level of competence in play throughout the game -- you either aren't good at a thing, and get worse at it along the way, or you are good at a thing and you have to keep putting in build resources to make sure you stay that way.  5e ditched this treadmill.  Now, if you're bad at a thing, you stay there -- you don't get worse or better.  If you put build resources into a thing to get better, you get better as you level and you don't have to put any more build resources into this to remain good at it.  If you do put additional build resources into it, you get lots better and you keep getting better as you go, outstripping the DC models.The only way this breaks is when you say that 5e still allows low level threats and you don't get better at their shticks if you don't put any build resources into that thing, but this doesn't happen in 4e.  Except, you never face low level threats in 4e at all!  If you face an orc at low level, it's a challenge.  Then you face better orcs, but not the original orc, and they're still a challenge.  Then orcs become minions, which get better at hurting you and not getting hit by you, but do down if you hit them.  The orcs get better as you get better -- you're not even seeing that first orc in 4e after you outlevel it.  So this comparison to 5e is bunk -- it's not a thing that happens in 4e, so claiming you get better at something that doesn't happen is moot.  What does happen is the monsters are on the same treadmill you are -- you're always facing orcs that are threats.   But orcs that stay the same and but still can do stuff?  BAD, NO COMPETENCE PCS!  Sheesh.Your second bullet is a complete misrepresentation of what I've said.  I said that DCs are set by the actions the PCs take.  If they take a clever action, or one that addresses the problem well, the DC can change based on what their actually trying to do.  IE, jumping across a gap can have a different DC from pole vaulting across the same gap, or walking a tightrope over the gap, or....  If you are in a grapple and pick "fight my way out of the grapple" then, well, that's pretty much the expected action so there's not going to be any changes to the DC.  It's going to be set according to the rules for contests.  Maybe, if you want a different DC, you should try a different action.Your first bullet is also somewhat of a misrepresentation, but I'm not clear on it, because I'd never define any part of the game as a functional object in the world independent of the player characters. There are concepts in there I don't consider to be rational.Or the level 10 fighter need a 10 to hit a goblin that's been moved along the treadmill with them.  One of the things I really liked about 4e was that monster names and descriptions were discardable and swappable.  I could have level X whatever by finding something close and filing off the numbers to make it my whatever.  The math did the work for me so I didn't have to worry about it.  Just pick a monster of the right level and with the powers in the envelop I wanted and, bam, it's a level X whatever!But, as a side point, the level 1 5e fighter (+5 to hit) needs a 10 or better to hit a goblin, and that same level 1 fighter needs a 13 to hit a Fire Giant.  The 10th level 5e fighter (+9 to hit) needs a 6 to hit the goblin and a... wait for it... 9 to hit the Fire Giant.  The level 1 4e fighter cannot hit the 10th level Giant.  This showcases the oddity of the argument, to me:  that competence is only about relegating lower level threats that you do not face into trivialities.  A failure to do this is apparently grounds to say PCs are not competent anymore.  However, those same PCs can actually do things that the other game's PCs cannot -- challenges far above their station can be, with luck and numbers, addressed.  This, however, is not viewed as competence, but rather reinforcement of incompetence.  I just don't get it.</blockquote>

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